[PB75 Spoiler] Ginger and Civac's Outside Context Problem

[greenline]

What are your immediate goals after industrializing?

[Ginger*]

What are your immediate goals after industrializing?

That's a great question and I don't have a really good answer. Basically my two choices long term are to cripple Mjmd (his culture victory would come before any space victory for me) or eat Ljub who has unceremoniously cordoned me off on the continent. 
The question is, in what order and with what units?

Right now I'm thinking about holding out for Tanks or Bombers. Probably bombers. I am sitting on one of the largest piles of commandos (40 cav) in RB history right now and at peace, its pretty sad tbh.

[civac2]

Password is

rizz

Only make use of in case of emergency.

[civac2]

Yeah, this isn't happening. The combination of overwhelming production as well as my clumsiness and inattentiveness make the war one-sided even with all the meat shields (sry ). I built some tac nukes but there is no way to get them anywhere they'd do much good. GA in 6 turns for better civics but it will be too late by then.

I concede to Mjmd.

[civac2]

Another turn, another blunder.

I had no destroyer with my fleet since those I had were lost earlier. This allowed Mjmd to observe my ships without me even realizing. Last turn he also got a 50/50 shot onto one of my nuclear-armed submarines with his own submarine and won. This cost me 2 tac nukes. (Thinking about it I wonder how he got vision of my submarine.)

My performance in the late game war has been pretty embarrassing.

[civac2]

The ICBM on my capital killed two of my GPs. This game can f*ck off.

[ljubljana]

hi folks! very well-played game from both of you, and i'm sorry for being such an obnoxious pain in the rear for most of it. while i'm sure they weren't much fun for either of us, our duels were very memorable and taught me a great deal about warfare in this game. i have a tremendous amount of respect for both of you, and hope to fight you many more times in the future

a couple quick hits:

The ICBM on my capital killed two of my GPs. This game can f*ck off.

i think i agree with the folks in the lurker thread who think ICBMs don't need a nerf and are appropriately costed currently, even if whipping them gives a huge first-mover advantage to christo/kremlin builder in practice. but this needs to go, IMO. nuking someone to kill their great people is totally ruinous and was one of several things that caused this to cross my "this game is over, for real, beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold when it happened. i can only imagine how demoralizing it must be to be on the receiving end of it, given how much it messed ME up just seeing it happen to you guys 

secondly, i had you pegged as not having commando access for most of this due to having killed two of your GGs in combat and, um, not having counted the others..... but it turned out you had 40+ commando cav just sitting around this whole time?? like my own commando rifles but in much greater numbers and on a two-mover? very very impressive! if that's the case, i am wondering why you didn't try to murder me at either your infantry-over-muskets or tanks-over-rifles tech windows, i considered myself plausibly killable at that point even assuming no commando access and did not really have any kind of plan for defending against that kind of commando swarm....

[civac2]

I likely could have killed you with tanks or tanks/bombers. But this would not have won the game. Moreover, defeating someone with so many cities and units is a horrible slog even with a large tech advantage. And cannons/cavs absolutely kill a smaller tank stack in such numbers.

[ljubljana]

hmm, would it not have helped the position though? if mjmd had not conquered superdeath i feel like Team Rest Of The World would still have had some play..... it locked in their long-term production advantage that neither of us could match, but you might have been able to after taking most of our land.... i guess the problem is that india signaled willingness to defend us before they went in vs SD, and by the time they had attacked SD they had gone nuclear and i had infantry drafting and industrial production anyways, so perhaps there was never quite the window of "tanks and unopposed bombers vs rifles" the way i made it out to be. idk, i'm not really sure which way the counterfactual actually goes, but all game long i thought i was overrating my capacity to deter aggression and it's very surprising to hear that i actually UNDERrated it.... (though i'm guessing i was correct in thinking if we had gone for factories before cannons + rails you would indeed have murdered us for it )

while i'm picking your brain, did you ever seriously consider spreading mining inc around, or was that only a reasonable option for zulu? if the latter that really underscores just how strong zulu and HRE are in the lategame, in retrospect it's wild to me that HRE went completely unpicked in a 10-player large map game

[civac2]

Yes, Mjmd was builing a railroads into your territory. He would have intervened.

I did not consider spreading Mining, Without the HQ it is painfully expensive and also directly helps my enemy. Maybe there was an opening at some point when most of the important tech was done to spread it quickly and try to fight it out with the tech I have.