Learning Capria FFH SG

[Hart]

Yeah, but ASAP is not the same as now. And the more we talk, the more my spider-sense is tingling.

Of course we can get warriors quickly, since Torrolerial can one-turn them. But wasn't there chops incoming there, that'd be better put to infrastructure (one of my rules of thumbs - chops should go to expansion or infrastructure), and that will risk losing overflow?

And slowing down the development on Trinity should be avoided at all costs, too. It has cottages, silk, wines, and copper to grow into! By getting the wines and silk online, Vallus can grow in size and use more cottages.

Put another way, mature production cities help the empire by founding and then shielding other cities. Developing cities help the empire by expanding to claim necessary resources.

Mine too, so that's why I'm going to say that the "damage" is done. The lost overflow due to the God King bonus being removed from said overflow (I assume that's what you're referring to) is the same as if we put it into infrastructure (the granary) or warriors - about 6 hammers.

The Plan
Before ending t100:
Switch Terrolerial to a warrior.
Micro Terrolerial from the corn to a plains hill forest tile.
End turn.

t101:
Set Workers A & B to build a mine. That's it.

This is the position and worker ID chart I was going to use.

At the moment the city only gets 16 base production, so 24 with the GK bonus. That mine puts the city at that magical 25/turn mark. (This is actually losing .5 hammer/turn due to rounding, and but I'm fairly sure that carries over?)

I had originally planned on chopping and mining another hill, but that brings the health cap down, and isn't necessary with the city already producing 25 hammers. I thought that we'd have to take DRASTIC measures to achieve this, but it's dead simple.

The good thing is that means Workers D & E, and possibly even C can go and mine those hills for Trinity.

Here's the numbers, to prove I'm not crazy.

Code:

[b]Turn            100    101    102    103    104    105[/b]

Torrolerial        8    8    8    8    8    8
Patria            1    1    1    1    1    1
Corn                        
Sheep            1    1    1    1    1    1
Grasshill forest    4    4    3    3    3    3
Grassland forest                        
Grasshill Mine                1    1    1    1
Cottage                        
Hamlet            2    2    2    2    2    2
                        
Build            Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Granary
Hammers generated    16    16    17    17    17    17
Overflow        0    12    11    11    11    11
Chopping/Hurry        13    0    0    0    0    0
Production multiplier    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5
Total production    43    42    42    42    42    42
Invested        0    0    0    0    0    96
Accumulated        43    42    42    42    42    138
Target            25    25    25    25    25    120

[Hart]

Ugh, its 3 AM. Why do I do this to myself?

<--- Addicted to spreadsheets.

[kjn]

Now that I see the workers, I see another thing: T-O has no worker support!

Its no sweat to micro Torrolerial to 17 base production. Work Patria (1F 6H), corn (6F), five forested hills (5F 10H), the farm or sheep (4F/5F), and add the city tile (2F 1H). Which sucks because we will have to give up cottage development, but I'd rather lose cottage-turns than cities.

Move one of the warriors in Torrolerial to the reserve. Torrolerial is our most secure location by far, given its production capacity, culture, and ease of reinforcement.

We need at least one worker to chop and mine around T-O too. Start with the one 1S of the cotton, and make sure it's assigned to T-O (but T-O should primarily work the sheep or farm to grow, I think). It should get chops and mines to support building a monument ASAP, so we can get horses and fish for the extra health for Torrolerial, so we can build two more mines there for more production.

As for overflow and production bonuses, all fractions are lost at end-of-turn. So 17 base production with GK will give 25. 17 with a chop of 13 will give 30 base, giving 45. The overflow of 20 will then be multiplied by 2/3, giving 13 that is added to the nex turn. But overflow is also capped by the cost of the thing being produced (and the actual production in the city, I believe). It was the latter I was worried about, but I think we will manage to preserve it for a building.

Another thing that might be of interest later on:

Under God King Torrolerial has a bonus on gold. Vallus has a bonus on beakers. That means that when we run high science, Vallus should work the shared cottages; when we run low science Torrolerial should work them. It also means Vallus at those periods can assign citizens to food or production tiles for growth and building infrastructure (like a library or Deruptus).

[kjn]

Oops - forgot the palace hammer. That makes us reach 18+13, or 31 base hammers. 46 GK hammers, minus 25 for the warrior. 21 overflow, rounded to 14. 32 production next turn, 48 with GK. 23 overflow, rounded to 15. Then we get 49 base hammers, and 24 overflow, reduced to 16. That will bring us to 34 base, 51 with GK, and we run into capping issues.

Certainly not what I was expecting, accumulating and increasing our overflow. On the other hand we have managed to actually increase the overflow during the turns. I had expected to lose overflow hammers long-term.

[Hart]

Oops - forgot the palace hammer. That makes us reach 18+13, or 31 base hammers. 46 GK hammers, minus 25 for the warrior. 21 overflow, rounded to 14. 32 production next turn, 48 with GK. 23 overflow, rounded to 15. Then we get 49 base hammers, and 24 overflow, reduced to 16. That will bring us to 34 base, 51 with GK, and we run into capping issues.

Certainly not what I was expecting, accumulating and increasing our overflow. On the other hand we have managed to actually increase the overflow during the turns. I had expected to lose overflow hammers long-term.

Just a quick question: At what point in the overflow calculation does overflow get cut off?

For example: with 51 H overflow from building a warrior (25 H), will the remaining 26 H get cut off to 25 (resulting in 25/1.5 = 16.667 overflow)...

...OR...

...will the GK multiplier bonus be removed before then, resulting in 17 H overflow after rounding (26/1.5 = 17.33), and thus not losing any overflow at all?

[Hart]

(Nevermind about the above question, I've incorporated both options in this batch of calcs.)

Here's a few calculations for different scenarios in Torrolerial.
I'm assuming the build order is Warrior (x4) - Granary - ???.

Working 1 Hamlet, 5 GL Hill Forests, and the Corn. Stagnant.
My only issue with this build is that we'll run into overflow issues (assuming cutoff priority), and we're losing 3 commerce per turn.

Code:

Turn            100    101    102    103    104    105
Torrolerial        8    8    8    8    8    8
Sage                        
Patria            1    1    1    1    1    1
Corn            1    1    1    1    1    1
Sheep                        
Grasshill forest    5    5    4    4    4    4
Grassland forest                        
Cottage                        
Hamlet            1    1    1    1    1    1
Grassland Mine                1    1    1    1

ASSUMING CUTOFF BEFORE ROUNDING
Build            Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Granary    Warrior
Hammers generated    18    18    19    19    19    19
Overflow        0    14    15    16    16    18
Chopping/Hurry        13                    
Production multiplier    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5
Total production    46    48    51    52    52    55
Invested        0    0    0    0    96    0
Accumulated        46    48    51    52    148    55
Target            25    25    25    25    120    25

Redacted because it's wrong.

Code:

ASSUMING ROUNDING BEFORE CUTOFF                        
Build            Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Granary    Warrior
Hammers generated    18    18    19    19    19    19
Overflow        0    14    15    17    19    22
Chopping/Hurry        13                    
Production multiplier    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5
Total production    46    48    51    54    57    61
Invested        0    0    0    0    96    0
Accumulated        46    48    51    54    153    61
Target            25    25    25    25    120    25

Working 1 Hamlet, and 1 Grassland Forest for 17 base hammers. Stagnant.
Manages to keep the 13 overflow from the chop on t100, and then improves on it when the mine comes online. Still loses the 2 commerce/turn.

Code:

Turn            100    101    102    103    104    105
Torrolerial        8    8    8    8    8    8
Patria            1    1    1    1    1    1
Corn            1    1    1    1    1    1
Sheep                0    0    0
Grasshill forest    4    4    3    3    3    3
Grassland forest    1    1    1    1    1    1
Cottage                        
Hamlet            1    1    1    1    1    1
Grassland Mine            1    1    1    1
                        
Build            Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Granary    Warrior
Hammers generated    17    17    18    18    18    18
Overflow        0    13    13    14    15    16
Chopping/Hurry        13                    
Production multiplier    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5
Total production    45    45    46    48    49    51
Invested        0    0    0    0    96    0
Accumulated        45    45    46    48    145    51
Target            25    25    25    25    120    25

Working both Hamlets, and the Sheep (Commerce maximised, if you like). Stagnant.

Code:

Turn            100    101    102    103    104    105
Torrolerial        8    8    8    8    8    8
Sage                        
Patria            1    1    1    1    1    1
Corn            1    1    1    1    1    1
Sheep                        
Grasshill forest    4    4    3    3    3    3
Grassland forest                        
Cottage                        
Hamlet            2    2    2    2    2    2
Grassland Mine                1    1    1    1
                        
Build            Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Warrior    Granary    ????
Hammers generated    16    16    17    17    17    17
Overflow        0    12    11     11    11    12
Chopping/Hurry        13                    
Production multiplier    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5    1.5
Total production    43    42    42    42    42    43
Invested        0    0    0    0    96    0
Accumulated        43    42    42    42    138    43
Target            25    25    25    25    120

The interesting thing about the last one is that the overflow loses a few hamemrs at first, but then begins to grow them back once the mine goes online. Depending on what we have Workers A & B (the ones nearest to Torrolerial) doing after t102, then we'll probably have another mine online in that time that I haven't accounted for.

After looking at these sheets, is it worth maximizing the overflow to that extent when it ultimately won't affect the build time of these units? Or were you hoping float this overflow through the queue until we want to build something with a relatively high cost, e.g a Settler or Temple of Kilmorph?

Now, all this optimisation aside...

[SIZE="5"] What should our plans be for the next few turnsets?[/SIZE]

[kjn]

Just a quick question: At what point in the overflow calculation does overflow get cut off?

Fond of crossing all t's and dotting all i's?

I tried to look around, but the articles on production that I knew about didn't go into this. SevenSpirits might know.

However, I think the cutoff is the higher of the hammer cost of the item being produced and the actual production out of the city.

Now, all this optimisation aside...

[SIZE="5"] What should our plans be for the next few turnsets?[/SIZE]

Good question, and I've thought about it a lot on different axes:

• Expansion direction: west or south or vertical?
  
• The religious path: which religions should we pick up, and what should be our final religion?
  
• Magic: go for mages, or settle for adepts; which mana should we develop?
  
• Wonders: which wonders should we aim to get?
  

Expansion south would mean war with Os-Gabella. We'd need at least bronze working for that, and probably support from disciples (for healing) and maybe Hunting or HBR (for scouting).

Expansion westwards would mean pink dot, boxing in Auric. It'd require Hunting (or maybe HBR as a substitute) for scouting and clearing out bears. It'd require a major investment in settlers and workers. Then we'd need Code of Laws for courthouses, or the Forbidden Palace.

Vertical expansion would mean settling our close settling targets, and picking up the techs needed to up our health and happiness limits. But with the exception of Golden, the new cities wouldn't really add much to our empire.

Right now, I think I favour the southward route, and war with Os-Gabella. Say that 6 axemen/SoKs are needed in the first wave, together with at least as many warriors to pick off cripples and garrison captured cities. That's 460/540 hammers that we need to get out of Torrolerial (warriors can come out from Trinity and T-O). At 30 hammers per turn (20 bhpt, city tile 2; Patria 6; 4 mines 12) that would take us 15-16 turns to build, starting with Bronze Working (for axes), or 18 turns (for SoKs, starting with RoK).

I will have to look at the save and check which path is best for us to use.

[T-hawk]

For example: with 51 H overflow from building a warrior (25 H), will the remaining 26 H get cut off to 25 (resulting in 25/1.5 = 16.667 overflow)...

I don't know if FFH does anything different (doubt it), but that's how base BTS does it.

However, I think the cutoff is the higher of the hammer cost of the item being produced and the actual production out of the city.

Only the item cost matters. The city's production doesn't figure into any overflow cap at all.

[Hart]

I don't know if FFH does anything different (doubt it), but that's how base BTS does it.

I figured as much.

[kjn]

Ok. Looking at the save right now. I also renamed our cities and workers.

Worker actions are finished. This means our new happy cap is 6 (due to the silk).

Empire-wide:

• Move 1 warrior from Torrolerial to the reserve tile (1 NE of the mana node).
  
• Notes our C1 warrior is in Salamanca. He should be in the reserve, as one of our better units. Will have to move him later on, when we have more forces available.
  
• Switch civics from Pacifism to Nationhood+Apprenticeship.
  

Torrolerial/Bologna

• Set to build a warrior, we want at least 4 ASAP, or until overflow is more than 25 (then dump into Granary).
  
• Configure for 17 or 18 base hammers, to preserve overflow.
  
• With an almost-built granary, we can chop two more forests.
  

Vallus/Paris

• Configure for growth in one turn.
  
• Next turn go max cottages.
  

Trinity/Oxford

• Continue to build monument.
  
• We can shave off a turn off the monument by working a forest grassland for three turns. I think we should do so.
  

Tentatio-onis/Salamanca

• Switch to building a monument.
  
• Work a forest grassland. It will enable us to grow in 6 turns, by working the sheep next.
  
• Switch to sheep next turn, when Paris has grown to 6.
  

Workers

Alfred Bester (A) and Brian Stableford (B) mines the hill they're on (2t). Then they can split up and go 1N and 2SW (1t) and chop+mine (7t) or chop-mine (3+4t), depending on when you want the chop hammers.

Charles Stross © and Diane Duane (D) go 1S/2S (1t) to the forest hill 1NE of Oxford, to chop and mine (3.5t). Then move and chop+cottage (3.5t) the grass forest 1NW of Oxford. Once Oxford's borders expand (8t) they can build a winery+road (3.5t) and a farm on the tile 1E of the mana (2.5t).

Eric Flint (E) goes to the forest hill 1N of the mana node to chop and mine (7t). Make sure the tile is assigned to Salamanca, so it will get the chop hammers for its monument.

I'm attaching the savegame with the above plans enacted.