WW35: Not Another TPS Report [Game Thread]

[zakalwe]

Others, such as Jkaen, gave less justification or were prepared to take greater risks than I was.

I think this is the 2nd time you have tried to claim this (while I am on the top of the list of votes) and its complete garbage. will get to that once I have got back up to date

Another Jkaen reference, and his riposte.

Then Jkaen's stance on TT.

Oh before I am asked, I have read through quickly the case against TT, Ichabod seems to be putting cases together quite nicely this game (town read). Would have no problem voting TT, but would prefer to try and push another candidate that nobody really seems focused on.

Oh, I would like to add that it seems Molach has posted less than me, and also voted for Jabbz over novice for the same reasons I did. Why the hate for me and no suspicion for him?

Looks ok I guess. Not really much to hold against Jkaen here.

Then Q says he might vote for dtay, but reiterates that Jkaen is way scummier.

I'm considering voting Dtay for the reasons Gazglum outlined, but even though we've probably got all we will out of Jkaen for a while he just strikes me as far scummier. I believe his lack of time, but his defense, his attack on Jowy, his talk about scum going after him because he zones in...it just doesn't ring true, to me.

His defending the Jowy push by saying it's a day 1 argument because he hasn't had time to read day 2 seems a particularly lazy scum approach. I mean, I know we need to be wary of penalizing solely for time, but even so - he's clearly read some, he's clearly read end of day 1, he knows what the flips were...seems quite lazy, IMO.

TT ignores the part about Jkaen, but starts changing his stance on dtay. This doesn't look so good for Jkaen.

In terms of the dtay suspicion, I am torn.

I still give him some leash because I still see him as a new player that is seemingly trying to be helpful to village whilst learning how to read people properly. His play reminds me of my early games where I was trying to contribute in some way when I felt a bit incompetent because I wasn't familiar with the nuances of the game. There's only one major difference from that that sticks out for me, and I'll be interested to see if it comes up.

My main worry with him is that he could just be a good actor. He is posting in the 'perfect range' of just enough to notice his avatar enough on a quick scan through, but not so much that there's much to tie him to. His posts are often quite 'neutral' as well which is a little unusual.

He was quick to pop in when his name started gaining traction, hopped on to me on a case he admits he 'hasn't verified himself' - likely because that ties me up with him. That also concerns me.

Next post he votes for Rowain, and then later moves to dtay, IIRC. (Still reading.)

[Qgqqqqq]

It was always going to be revealed that day. I did the breadcrumb for a couple of reasons - firstly, and most importantly, I wasn't sure how much the Meiz wagon was going to take off. I can't remember if it was before or after the Ichabod-stuff went down, but I was expecting there to be a lot of discussion around the matter, and I wanted to be sure that I could prove that it was a no result, in case there ended up being a big wagon/people assumed I was backing off on a fellow scum or something similar. As it was, there was more of a wimper around the matter than a bang, so it was all a bit unnecessary, but at the time I thought something big might come of it :/

Secondly, Jowy was pushing me for my scan, and I didn't want to tell him yes or no on Meiz - especially considering he hadn't given an opinion on him at that time. So I made that post, pushing Meiz and ending with a "my result should now be clear" or something similar.

Finally, I just thought it would be cool to do :P I've never really done a gambit or something like that before, and I thought it was kinda fun for a change.


I'm not sure on my scum reads, tbh. I've been quite busy the past few days (as should be obvious) and haven't had time to review. I suppose I'm thinking about Jabbz and Fenn atm (that Fenn post was really bad, Imo), but I don't know how much of that is Jkaen not being active posting. I'm feeling a lot better about Zakalwe, given that he's not supporting an easy lynch, and because the people I'm suspecting are all putting him up as next in line.

I definitely need to reread, though.


Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'll do the reread et al tomorrow morning.

[zakalwe]

Regarding Jabbz.

When the votes are:

6 votes: Lewwyn (Meiz, Jowy, Gazglum, Rowain, AdrienIer, Ichabod)
5 votes: Jabbz (Qgqqqqq, zakalwe, Molach, novice, Fenn, )
4 votes: Qgqqqqq ( Lewwyn, Jabbz, dtay, Twinkletoes89)
1 votes: Gazglum (Bobchillingworth)
1 votes: Bobchillingworth (Mattimeo)
1 votes: Jowy (Jkaen)
1 votes: AdrienIer (Azarius)

He posts: "As far as a second vote, I think TT still looks tempting. Despite that however, since I know I'm town, and I need to preserve my own life so I can keep working on finding the sycophants, I pretty much have to vote Lewwyn."
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid518454

So basically instead of waiting and seeing, he is partially locking his vote on mafia GF. I think he would have kept his options more open as Lewwyn's scum partner.

Then he notices Matt's claim and votes novice with good reasoning, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid518457

It could be bussing, but I don't think it is.

Good post in defense of Jabbz here. This point is still valid now, I guess. And we even know that the other option he mentioned was mafia, too.

About Jkaen, he continues day 2 by going through the three cases on Bob/Dtay/TT, which are posts that many of us saw as improvements. (Not all, though. Dtay didn't like them.) He only got halfway through his evaluation of TT, then concluded that TT was scummy but lynching Bob or Dtay would be a good way to get a better read on TT. Also looks pretty bad, in retrospect.

Apart from that, Gazglum called for people to vote for TT, Molach joined him, but Jabbz moved away. We've been over that, though. I think I'll try to move on to day 3/4, as I've already spent a lot of time rehashing days 1 and 2.

My preliminary conclusion is that Jkaen definitely must be a top suspect if we conclude that both Q and Jabbz are innocent.

Fenn's play on day 2 was also very anonymous and highly compatible with being on TT's scum team.

[zakalwe]

That last post by Q is fine.

Considering how much work it is to actually reread this thread, I also think it's surprising that Fenn could just do "some more rereading" and then come up with that brand new world view.

Last paragraph sounds like he's hoping for someone to vote Jkaen or Fenn.

... or maybe he just wanted to breadcrumb his scum team. :P

But I don't want to start tunneling too soon here. Let's take it one lynch at a time.



Brick, rules question. If a strongman is jailed by a jailkeeper, can he still make a successful kill?

[zakalwe]

A recap of Fenn vs. TT at the start of day 3.

Ichabod might be a SK yeah.

@Jkaen, with Bob and dtay's town flips TT's behaviour on Day 2 seems wolfy to me. At first he was saying that he trusts dtay, that he makes solid posts that he (TT) agrees with etc. Then when TT and dtay are close in votes he suddenly really doesn't like dtay's posting and defensive voting...before voting for dtay himself. That plus what Jkaen and Gazglum have talked about already make me very suspicious of him.

Also don't like his tracker/watcher claim. It prevents the hypothetical town watcher/trackers from refuting him unless they both claim. Another possibility is that TT is a Mafia Tracker hoping to gain town cred by exposing a SK. That helps the mafia even more than the town imo, since it gives the mafia another night to kill people in.

Mafia tracker was discarded? I take back that part of my argument then.

I admit I haven't contributed as well as me others. I don't like to make judgments like "so and so is scum" without being sure of what I'm saying. Probably not such a great strategy in Mafia though. Twinkletoes is the most scummy to me out of all the living players, I'm confident he's mafia. He can wait for now however.

(my emphasis above)

@Fenn. Think if it's somehow possible for scum-TT to know Ichabod made the kill.

Night 1 mafia kills Matt. Night 2 they kill Rowain. There cannot be any failed kill attempt on Ichabod to show them he is immune to kills. There are no investigative roles available for them that woudl caught him. So TT must be town.

@Fenn. Think if it's somehow possible for scum-TT to know Ichabod made the kill.

Night 1 mafia kills Matt. Night 2 they kill Rowain. There cannot be any failed kill attempt on Ichabod to show them he is immune to kills. There are no investigative roles available for them that woudl caught him. So TT must be town.

That's true, scum!TT couldn't have known that Ichabod killed somebody. Only way that could be is if there's a second SK who killed one of Rowain/Matt while the mafia targeted Ichabod, but that's really unlikely .

I just get scummy vibes from TT's posts, maybe I'm just bad at reading people.

Meanwhile everybody else pretty much went "ah, so TT must be town then" or started toying with the idea that he could be the second SK. Looks like Fenn may have been colored by spoiler knowledge here.

[zakalwe]

Didn't consider TT being a SK when I made my last post. Also forgot to fully think through the implications of watcher/tracker results! Shows what I get for trying to post late at night.

Sorry to hear about Azarius's situation, that's rough. Get well soon!

Twinkletoes89, by refusing to claim your role, I'd say you are impeding the village's ability to hunt scum.

Why would Ichabod as a Serial Killer automatically betray the village? He's already been outed as anti-town, he has no chance to win. The only thing at stake for him anymore is his Mafia honor. Yeah maybe he secretly hates the village and wants to screw us over, but I doubt it! Let's try something a little unorthodox.

Oh, and later this. I commented earlier that I got "guilty conscience" vibes from his first paragraph here. I think he may have realized that he had let some spoilers slip.

This is also the post that TT chose to reply to, out of all the posts clamoring for his claim.

So far, Jkaen looks a little better on day 3. For some reason, I like his post #1196 on "what happens next".

[Meiz]

Guys, I've looked over his past dozen post or so, and I *really* don't think Bob is scum. He is making the same posts we've seen from him in half-dozen town games, with the same attitude.

Why would Q make this post? Was he really that confident that the votes wouldn't swing back to TT?

Better question is, how did Q recognize Bob as town? I'm too lazy to check now, but I think he ignored my & yours argument on Bob making attacks on false info. I wondered the same for TT's part.

I also don't like Q's constant "this and this, but not sure, have to re-read" comments. It's like Ichabod's scum play, constant re-reading without coming to practical conclusion

[Meiz]

Oh forgot one thing.

It's odd how Q said that him revealing zak scan didn't matter. Because that actually revealed that roleblocker actually exists. Other nights could have been Bob's doing. So perhaps Q forgot the tiny detail of his story for a moment there smile

Sure, they could've been Bob. But if they were, scum would've tried to kill me earlier (night 2) - that they didn't made the existence of a roleblocker pretty clear to me.

Here's the quote, "I didn't post it precisely because it doesn't really matter. I barely bothered to submit it, anyway."

Sure, you can claim it was likely roleblocker exists. But I think that's quite odd mindset to have without having any proof of it.

[zakalwe]

Made it through to the end. :whew:

TT did seem a bit reluctant to vote for Q after his botched claim. Maybe he didn't want to compound his mistake by forcing a 1:1 face/off resulting in a mafia lynch. Instead, he argued with Ichabod, town should always take a sure SK lynch rather than gambling on a 50/50 mafia/town lynch.

Q also says Fenn looks bad and I look good because Fenn names me as the next lynch after him. But I'm only next if Q flips as scum. So maybe a bit of a slip, there?

I guess Fenn and Q could both be mafia, together.

"Barely bothered to submit it" is indeed a bit much. Of course you'd want to submit an order so that you could gain the certainty of a roleblocker being out there.

TT's "what a messy day" post on day 1 still makes little sense to me if both Q and Jabbz are town. *Could* just be scum trying to make town noises, I guess, but it's a post that seems like it ought to have some kind of purpose.

One more point in Q's favor, though: if he's mafia, why did he make his cop claim on day 1? He could have hung in there and made it on day 2, instead. Or even just very late on day 1, if he couldn't get himself off the block. He had to figure that counterclaims were very likely once *two* fake cop claims had been made. Why not save the gambit for day 2 and just keep pushing Jabbz for a presumed mislynch?

[zakalwe]

BTW. I was a bit disappointed to see this (night 1):

Zakalwe: IMO has just been reading very well this whole time, probing the right people, making the right points. Besides, he just reads very towny.

Erode into this (day 4):

Zakalwe...I can't get a read on. He's been saying the right things, making the right cases, but he feels...off. He feels like he's had less of a presence, more been agreeing with other peoples cases then making ones of his own and just generally strikes a bad chord on some level.
At the same time...he's made the most posts of everyone, and he does seem to be saying the right stuff so...idk. He's not a player I find easy to read at the best of times.

If you don't find me easy to read, why were you so sure about me after day 1? And what did I do in the meantime to lose your trust?