HidingKneel Wrote:Diplomacy with Ellimist has taken a strange turn:
Use my worldspell offensively... well, I guess Ellimist could build a couple of settlers, build cities near Kyan, gift them to me, and then have me make trouble with a bunch of angry treants. I can see that arrangement going very well for Ellimist, but have trouble seeing how it could possibly go well for us. We'd seriously injure our economy (our cities are becoming dependent on ancient forests for food), and without our deterrent we'd be a much softer target for Ellimist later. And it's not like we could gain much from the conflict: Kyan's as far from us as anyone, so we wouldn't want to keep any of his cities.
And what's this about Weezel? Seems like Ellimist is getting ahead of himself. Is he talking about when/if Kyan is eliminated? I'm not sure I like the idea of taking Weezel out at that point... need someone to put a check on Ellimist's power, since we're not likely to be able to do that ourselves. Ideally I'd like to stay out of all wars and just build my enemies to death.
That sounds like a horrible deal for you-Wiping out the Hippus/Mercucians by weaking your civ just looks to me like it puts Ellimist back into a dominant position. Makes sense that he (and you?) would eventually come in conflict with the Malakim, maybe he just wants to make the Malakim an enemy so he can use those wolf-riders against them? A little risky, if you ask me.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Merovech Wrote:That sounds like a horrible deal for you-Wiping out the Hippus/Mercucians by weaking your civ just looks to me like it puts Ellimist back into a dominant position. Makes sense that he (and you?) would eventually come in conflict with the Malakim, maybe he just wants to make the Malakim an enemy so he can use those wolf-riders against them? A little risky, if you ask me.
Agreed. But it's even worse than that! Take a look:
Quote:I haven't received the save yet, so there's a good chance you won't get it tonight. I wanted to go ahead and respond tonight, but I may add more later.
I have heard back from Tholal, and he's reluctant but willing(I think). It may be necessary to delay by one or two turns, but I'll know more when I finish researching HBR(required for wolf riders.)
Sorry if I caught you off guard by asking about the Malakim. I'm not intending to do anything against him in the short term, but Weezel has been dominating in the graphs for awhile now. He's likely to pull even further ahead technologically in the next 20 turns, especially now that he has the RoK shrine. The possibility of surrounding them with new cities and unleashing treants from all sides could be strong, given the dense forests on this map. I understand if you'd prefer to hold the WS in reserve, though.
Ellimist
He's talking about using the worldspell against the Malakim, presumably after Kyan has been eliminated (if we can actually manage that). Does he think I'm nuts?
Quote:Ellimist,
Unleashing our treants upon the Malakim might well be devastating for them, but it would be equally devastating for us. Deprived of the rich bounty of our forests, the citizens of Evermore would surely starve.
It is good to hear that the Khazad will stand with us. We will have the gold that you require. If there is to be a delay of one or two turns, then we will be pay for one or both of our new cities in a timely fashion.
HK, Advisor to the Queen
I decided not to mention the most obvious reason we're not on board with his plan: it'll leave us defenseless at a point in the game when it'll be down to just him and us (and Tholal turtling and counting his gold).
Anyways, the turn finally got around again, after Kyan was holding it for more than 48 hours. Not too much to report. Gearing up for a final assault on Ultigar:
Gilden and his buddy have been joined by a fawn, and there's a priest on the way to provide healing and tiger support. I expect that city to be ours within a few turns. We're also getting a city from Ellimist next turn, and another one the turn after. That'll bring us to eleven cities, and I think at that point we'll have expanded to our "natural" borders. Which is not to say that there isn't a lot more good land to claim. But it looks like the rest of the good land is a little further from home, out past some land which isn't so good. Going to have to think about what the next step in the expansion plan is. Water mana may be essential.
Actually, there's one more site near our present borders that looks pretty good. That's the hill south of the horses here:
Plains hill, fresh water, surrounded by forests. Can work horses and sheep (we don't have sheep elsewhere yet), and can share that corn farm down south to get growing quickly. The downside? Ellimist might not look to kindly on us claiming that site. It'll push right up against his borders. Also, considering how densely forested the area is, settling there would almost be downright aggressive given the possibility of Marching the Trees.
Still, I'd like to plant my next city there if I can. Just got to figure out the diplomatic angle on this thing. Given how accomodating Ellimist is being, maybe I should just come right out and ask him if he'd object? Or maybe I should mind that old adage "It's better to ask forgiveness than permission" and just settle it, and see what he says?
HidingKneel Wrote:Still, I'd like to plant my next city there if I can. Just got to figure out the diplomatic angle on this thing. Given how accomodating Ellimist is being, maybe I should just come right out and ask him if he'd object? Or maybe I should mind that old adage "It's better to ask forgiveness than permission" and just settle it, and see what he says?
What would you do if he says, "No, I really would prefer if you don't settle there," or something to that effect? If you would go ahead and settle anyways, that would surely upset him more than if you didn't ask.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Turn 86 played. First bit of news is our new city of Khandar:
Doesn't look like much yet, but with corn and bronze nearby it should make itself worthwhile in a hurry.
Our second-to-newest city is in a bit of danger:
Well, I can get an archer and another warrior up there before the goblin hordes arrive, so no big deal. Wish I had a chance to get a fawn there, though. Need to get some more xp on fawns. For that matter, I need to get more fawns! Unfortunately FoL hasn't spread much: it's currently only in three cities, two of which are busy producing PoLs.
So, Gilden and company were gearing up for an epic fight by Ultigar. But I sent a fawn to scout the area, and found this:
Looks like the barbarians are sending a kill team after Weezel, and have left the city undefended. Well, I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. So that makes two cities we added this turn. The conquest gold is handy too: we're one turn closer to being able to turn science back on. Oh, here's that kill team:
They don't look so tough when they're not fortified in a hill city! I might try to pick one off next turn with a fawn, if the odds aren't looking too bad.
(Provided they don't suicide themselves on the city... not sure what the AI will do there.)
Merovech Wrote:What would you do if he says, "No, I really would prefer if you don't settle there," or something to that effect? If you would go ahead and settle anyways, that would surely upset him more than if you didn't ask.
True enough. But at this point Ellimist has helped me more than he's hurt me, so I decided to be upfront:
Quote:Ellimist,
Let me once again offer the gratitude of the Ljosalfar people. We expect our new city of Khandar to grow and prosper in the coming years. We came upon an unexpected windfall this past turn, so we have offered a timely payment.
Most of our priesthood is busy with the task of renewing our forests. However, we have a new recruit which we expect to be fully trained in Bruti at the end of turn 88. We would be pleased to send him in your direction; he should be able to reach the southern tip of your culture on turn 92. Meanwhile, the elders in Evermore anticipate a lively debate with the missionary of Kilmorph you are sending.
Another matter that we wanted to broach with you: do you have any plans to settle to the south of Meridia?
There is a site between our borders, 4 tiles north of Dendrom (6 tiles south and one east from Meridia), which we are considering for a city at some point in the future. The land looks like it will be of much more use to us than to you, given the dense forests and scarcity of food (we hope to feed it from Dendrom's farm). And settling there would give us a good opportunity to establish a trade connection, which could be of mutual benefit.
However, given the proximity of the site to your borders, we did not want to act without consulting with you.
Finally, please keep us apprised of the state of our alliance. We stand ready to contribute our share (well, it looks like we will be 3 gold short next turn, which we can make up to you later).
HK, Advisor to the Queen
If he's not keen on the idea, I won't press it. There's plenty of other directions to settle. Plus I might want to hold off on that for the time being. City maintenance is starting to take its toll, even in City States.
DaveV Wrote:I think they'll turn around and make a revenge attack against their former city. So you should rack up a few XP on defense.
You are correct. Unfortunately, all four were killed by our archer (with Gilden getting a few defensive strikes in), so our fawn didn't get any experience. One more experience point on the fawn would have been nice.
So, fairly big turn. We made contact with a non-orcish civ!
Haven't responded yet. I'll think of something when it's time to send along the turn. Also, not sure how he found me. I don't see any Malakim units. Maybe it was by hawk? (By coincidence, we would have made contact with him this turn anyway: hawk flying south from Ultigar revealed the Malakim borders.)
We also got a communication from Ellimist:
Quote:HidingKneel,
That's good news regarding the priest of leaves. You also mentioned mana coordination earlier, and I don't think it will be too long before I'm interested in something like that. Now that the angels will (hopefully) not be a factor for too much longer, would you be interested in additional temple exchanges?
I'm not totally sure what to do with the unsettled area that remains between us. I've been focusing my own expansion in every other direction, but I would like to eventually settle three sites on my southern border: 1S of the mana node south of Mehrunes, as well as the river hill between the furs and the horse, and the eastern tundra hill between the deer and mana node. We can negotiate the particulars later, but for now I'd prefer if you didn't settle further north yet, or your creative culture will quickly claim the entire region.
As far as the gold, I'm going to request that we postpone things by one turn. Everything continues to go well, but I'm hoping to determine the approximate location of the Mercurian city before I crush my economy with unit upkeep costs, war weariness, and unit supply costs.
Ellimist
Hmm... his settling plans conflict with mine. But I'm not particularly worried about it. There is tons more land to expand to on this map. So I sent this response:
Quote:Ellimist,
We would be pleased to trade mana with you, and to coordinate the acquisition of mana, at some point in the not-too-distant future. However, we must confess that sorcery was lost to our people during the Age of Ice, and it will take some time to rediscover the old secrets. I can tell you this: our first goal will be to acquire water mana, since that will enable us to find a great deal more productive land to expand to. However, we will not need more than a handful of water adepts, so we would be happy to trade the mana to you, or to offer another type of mana in trade if you were to develop a water node yourself.
As for temple exchanges, we are interested but not in the immediate future. Our priests are presently few and highly valued by our people. Unforunately, the ways of Cernunnos have been slow to spread amongst our peoples, and there are only a handful of cities where such priests can be trained. However, we hope to change this in the near future.
As for the land between us, we are happy to hold off settling anything for the time being. As you say, there are plenty of other directons in which to expand (even more so when water mana becomes available). And since we have acquired four new cities in the last handful of turns, it will take us some time to consolidate our position.
We will offer you the gold next turn. May it spell a quick end to the Mercurian threat.
Speaking of settling, we got a new city from Ellimist:
Here's a look at its modest beginnings:
So, now that we've made contact with Weezel, demographics are a lot more informative. Let's look at some graphs! This one doesn't look so good:
I mostly blame the Malakim GNP for making us look bad:
But in manufacturing, things look at lot better:
Looks like Weezel's running pacifism and apprenticeship, for a whopping -30% military production. Wonder if he's also making an altar run? Well, I suspect he's going to get smacked around by orcs long before he gets there. Because he's running fairly light on military:
I mean, we're running a light military, but he's running a very light military. (Though we have more cities to defend... I think Weezel only has eight.) He's doing alright in crop yield, though:
Finally, the big picture:
We're leading in every category except GNP (I'm not going to count the Mercurians in the "soldier" category.) Unfortunately, GNP is the one that matters most. Still, I'd like to file this screenshot under "hope remains".
Especially since there's about to be a lot of fighting that doesn't involve us. Hopefully hiring 50-some wolf riders will kill Ellimist's economy while still allowing him to put the hurt on Kyan. When that's over, Ellimist can force Weezel to invest in a proper military. Meanwhile we can quietly sneak into the lead!
Well, that's the theory, anyway .
Anyways, I give Ellimist his payment next turn, and spend one more turn running 0% science to rebuild my event fund. Then it's time to get teching again. We're almost halfway to KotE already, so I guess I should definitely finish that.
Question: I've now got enough cities to build the summer palace. Anybody know the exact mechanics/benefits of that? It seems like it might be a pretty useful build, consider how much more land there is to expand to on this map.
Not too much to report. Ellimist says he's hired a bunch of wolf riders, and will keep us posted. It occurs to me that if Ellimist succeeds in razing a bunch of Kyan's cities, then we will see a massive spike in the armageddon counter. That means blight, which will hit us the hardest (Evermore is the largest city in the world, and already unhealthy), followed by horsemen (which won't hit Ellimist at all). Something to be wary of.
I've now sent two messages to Weezel, and gotten no response. Wonder what that means? Maybe he's just not keen on diplomacy.
Domestically, the most exciting bit of news is our exotic animal capture:
Now, if I could just get my hands on a lion, I could build myself a (mostly useless) wonder.
At end of turn, Ultigar came out of anarchy, and our event fund was rebuilt.
I think I'll be able to finish KotE next turn at 100% science. Though I'm now thinking writing might have been better.
HidingKneel Wrote:Now, if I could just get my hands on a lion, I could build myself a (mostly useless) wonder.
It's basically Notre Dame, except it doesn't stack with existing carnivals and gives a little culture and more but less useful GPP (and an almost but not completely neligible amount of science), no? So, decent?
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
HidingKneel Wrote:Question: I've now got enough cities to build the summer palace. Anybody know the exact mechanics/benefits of that? It seems like it might be a pretty useful build, consider how much more land there is to expand to on this map.
Merovech Wrote:It's basically Notre Dame, except it doesn't stack with existing carnivals and gives a little culture and more but less useful GPP (and an almost but not completely neligible amount of science), no? So, decent?
And even better if you're running FoL, since you get free tigers so that carnivals are worth extra happiness and culture. And I don't mind the great bard GPP: I'm trying to generate prophets, but a bard would definitely be useful for the Song of Autumn.
But the main benefit is the happiness, and in this game I just don't need it.
Looks like my city sizes are capped by food, rather than happiness.
Ah, thanks. Looks like that's not such a useful build after all, if it only reduces distance maintenance and I'm already running city states. Maybe after I conquer one of my enemies .
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