WW48: Melllvar's Grand Competition!

[Alhambram]

GG Pindicator, you clearly needed break seeing your avatar! 

[Rowain]

Alhambram

[Meiz]

@Meiz - I know you said you were worried about me not joining on Bob. Why didn’t you just ask me more directly to move to show townyness to you?

Because I was not looking for ordering you to move your vote, I was stating my nagging suspicion on you hedging to vote, with the clock running near deadline.

[Kaiser]

@rowain, thanks I figured the time stamp thing out by now
Why do you vote for Alhambram?


@Alhambram I do not understand the goal of your question here either, can you elaborate?

(Yesterday, 12:15)Meiz Wrote:

(Yesterday, 12:14)Alhambram Wrote:

(Yesterday, 11:03)Meiz Wrote:

(Yesterday, 10:58)Alhambram Wrote:
There is 7 hours left before deadline. All what I ask is players to think for themselves when and how the idea that Lewwyn/Commodore/Pindicator is scum team did start because it did led to mislynching of Lewwyn.


The answer is pretty clear to me. Lewwyn had a very heavy impact on pushing lynches away from Commodore. Pindicator had no interest in suspecting or going after Commodore. Even on Day 1 when he was a lynch candidate and Commodore was the running candidate before thrawn. I find it very suspicious that he claims he never took a look at Commodore's post, because his dolphin RP was too distracting.


Knowing that Lewwyn is a town, why did he feel need to rehammer thrawn at day 1?


Why Lewwyn had the need to hammer thrawn? I don't understand your question lol


Or you are avoiding my question.

@GES, what where you thinking yesterday, your play blindly following Rowain is beyond bad as it leaves no trail whatsoever on your Bob vote.

Looking at your day, you voted for me when the standing was this
4 votes: Kaiser (Bobchillingworth, Gaspar, Rowain, Meiz)
4 votes: Meiz (pindicator, Jabbz, Kaiser, Alhambram)

Part of your reasoning was this:

Omar's main concern, though, is of the three people Omar feel comfortable about, one is voting Robot, one is voting Skelly, and one is in the wind.

I guess, Rowain and Sunrise, but who was on Meiz?
For what reason did you think them town/feel comfortable about?

You vote Bob here, without any particular reason apart from following Rowain and that you had no town lean on him. I never find you giving any reasons for it. Where there any reasons to vote beyond Rowain?
I strongly believe that we are going to loose the game tomorrow with with your strategy, as we are down to a 2/8th chance of hitting scum Day5 and 2/7 Day6 if we don't do so and your behaviour basically leaves you as a complete unkown. Hopefully nobody else will pick this up.


@Sunrise
Basically sunrise had to vote immediately Meiz when coming back online.
This would have led to a 5 Meiz, 4 Bob, 1 Kaiser (Bob) situation and bob would still have been able to switch. Pindicator changed that ~10 minutes by switching from Meiz to Bob bringing Bob in the lead, with a quick Meiz vote by Bob as well, he would have kept Meiz as the tally leader due to vote timing even with pindicator switching.
Granted sunrise seemed to just have came back (I assume he lives in Europe and comes back from work) to the thread but the wolves should have coordinated this.

If sunrise is a wolf and acted like he did, it is likely that the other wolf has already been on Meiz at that time (pindicator, Jabbz, Kaiser, Alhambram) and for that reason the wolves were not sure enough to get the Meiz vote to the finish line with either me or the other town switching to Bob.
But then killing pindicator reduces the Meiz voters making it more dangerous for Sunrise and the other wolf. Pindicator was the best target though as a good bodyguard could have prolonged our game and the Wolves need it to finish soon, I hope.


@[vote]Gaspar[/Gaspar]
Can you please parse this for me?
Scum case: Roland, questionable claim, focused on minute policy issues. -> I guess you mean me pointing to Meiz starting Day4 before reading his PM?
Town case: Left to hang very quietly. -> I do not contribute, maybe?

Were there any reasons for voting beyond Bob was barely playing all game?

Regarding the GES - Jabbz - Pindicator interaction, I have a different opinion. GES had to actually use his role on pindicator to create the read, he could be a wolf tracker, but he would have at least invested a charge for it (though pindis death indicates there are unlimited roles in this game).
Jabbz could just have confirmed as wolf because he either is wolf with GES or has to assume GES is being honest as town.
I think Jabbz claim is the weakest one here and I really wish by now I had visited GES that night.

@Jabbz, do you still have charges left?

@Meiz, I am questioning so much right now, if you should be a wolf I think you have thoroughly earned the GrandMaMeiz title by sacrificing Bob.

[Kaiser]

Sorry formatting issues with the quote for Al and my vote Gaspar

[Gaspar]

GG Pindicator.

I wonder if that was a direct shot or a save.

With pindicator dead and confirmed bodyguard I will reveal that my role is Bodyguard Enabler. When I die the Bodyguard role ceases to function for all players. I did not want to claim while the role was active for obvious reasons. Pretty weak role but still better to have the BG than not.

I basically am of the opinion that there are two scum left - one of the neighbors and one of the tracker/watchers. Given that Bob was a pretty strong role and he didn't need to hang yesterday, I would lean in the direction of non-Bob voters first. Both sunrise and Alhambram's EOD actions were pretty scummy tbf but on the whole I feel better about Alhambram's play. This also means I lean GES over Jabbz for town.

sunrise089

[sunrise089]

@Gaspar - can you articulate a case on me aside from end of Day 4? Specifics are helpful

Also @ Gaspar - can you talk a little more about your role or you analysis of it? You’ve clearly had plenty of time. Do you think there’s a second village bodyguard out there or your role is just solely tied to pind? Also also, what is the connection between your role and House thematically?

@Meiz - I have lots to say with respect to my own defense and your questions above and I’m not dodging, I’m just in between meetings and can type short stuff but not long defenses/cases. Feel free to come at me even harder if I don’t answer.

[Alhambram]

My thoughts process and actions after end of day 3.

Soon after Lewwyn turned out be townie, I posted in neighbor topic that Lewwyn turned out townie and Sunrise might be right about Gaspar.
Also I shared my concerns in neighbortopic that Sunrise might be nightkilled, why I was worried? I was thinking that townie-townie neighbor setup might be possible instead townie-scum setup.
Since Sunrise did reveal that we were neighbors at beginning of day 3, I was worried that in case that we were townie-townie, Sunrise would be nightkilled by wolves since they would know that both of us aren't wolves and neighbors.
Reason for my worry is that in case that Sunrise flipped town, I am almost certain to be hanged at day 4 due me gaining scum points with no lynch vote at day 1 and one of Lewwyn voters and Lewwyn begging to hang me at end of day 3.
That was why I did left some posts related that subject (#1382, #1441, #1442)

But I didn't tell Sunrise at neighbor thread or here that I started trust him less. First time that I felt bit odd about Sunrise is how he despite posting about Gaspar at day 1 and 2 for example early at day 1 when Sunrise called out Gapsar and his post #778 at day 2, he didn't join Gaspar train at end of day 3. Another reason that I started feel that Sunrise might be scum after all is that I did post my thoughts and he not. For day 1 (me) and 2 (Sunrise) both of us has RL reasons but at day 3 both of us were active and yet it was me alone who posted. Sunrise knew beforehand at night 2 that I would likely vote either Lewwyn and Pindicator. And the final straw for me was fact that Sunrise didn't nightkilled despite neighbors, if we were townie-townie, why did wolves kill Novice and let good lynch possibility go after reveal of Sunrise at beginning of day 3.

After Novice was revealed to be nightkilled, I finally assumed that townie-scum setup is most likely and Sunrise is thus a scum. And I decided to stop posting there to prevent giving Sunrise more information (post #1438). And as promised to myself I did a re-evaluation of entire game, meanwhile Kaiser vs Meiz gained traction and I decided to join Meiz train, because I thought that it was Meiz/Sunrise/??? team after rereading all posts. Why did I come wiht this thought? I looked back to how idea of Lewwyn/Pindicator/Commodore group was formed and it was started by Meiz which he did admit too. And after rereading day 1, not only Meiz did think that hammering of thrawn by Lewwyn is scummy, Sunrise thought that too (post #407). And with how everthing went, I assumed that there was sort of uberplay ongoing with uberwolf Meiz with Sunrise and someone else as teammates and the plan to bus Commdore started when thrawn was sitting at most votes (post #210). And seeing both Meiz and Sunrise (who I consider scum now) calling Lewwyn's hammering scummy and Meiz starting tie together Lewwyn/Pindciator/Commdore caused me believe that both Meiz and Sunrise were wolves and they are playing uberplay.

You probably wonder now why I didn't accuse Sunrise as scum at day 4? Because at beginning of day 4 Sunrise got a lot town credits and I did earned some scum points with no lynch vote for example. If I did say that Sunrise was scummy, it was more likely that you all would rather believe Sunrise than me. That is why I kept my mouth about that I think that Sunrise is scum at day 4. Therefore I went for Meiz instead who gained traction, I thought that there was some uberplay ongoing and Meiz claiming that his power got stolen without ever proving whether he possesed that power reinforced my idea only more that Meiz is fooling with us. And I decided to question Meiz and answer what he posts about his assements of my posts. His answers did make sense but I was tunneled here, thinking that some uberplay might ongoing and Meiz is being GrandMa Meiz as Kaiser says.

But I didn't look for Meiz alone, I also looked to others, I got better impression of Gaspar, Pindicator and Kaiser after rereading and felt confirmed by it because Sunrise wants lynch Gaspar and Pindicator and voting for Kaiser (#1495). Rowain already got my good impression, thus remaining scum would be between Bob, GES, Jabbz in my opinion.

Then Meiz found out that Bob might be scum and Bob gained votes from Meiz, GES, Gaspar and Rowain. I still thinking that Meiz is scum and playing ubergame therefore is ready to throw teammate under bus to claim town credit. Throwing teammate under bus now wouldn't be first time that happened in this WW, so I was considering it happening again and that is why I called voting for Bob bussable (#1572). I was suprised to see Pindicator moving to Meiz, after what he went through since day 1 when Meiz voted for him. And I kept asking Meiz questions (post #1573) to keep pressure.

I noticed that GES did vote bob because he thinks that Rowain is right. I called him upon because I felt that he is shoving responsility upon Rowain and avoid taking blame. I did make statement at post #1509 that everyone should think for themselves and upon seeing GES voting because he thinks that Rowain is right, I felt need to call him out for it. Why did I make statement that everyone should thinks for themselves? That is because I felt that it was my cause of voting for Lewwyn, not thinking myself but following others for it. To make clear, I don't blame Meiz and I do blame myself only for actually voting Lewwyn. That is also why I gave Kaiser advice at post #1508, because I didn't want Kaiser making same mistake as me by assuming that Lewwyn/Commodore/Pindicator group is scum back then.

In end I stayed at Meiz, believing till very end that there was uberplay ongoing with Meiz and Sunrise. Only way that would break my illusion is that Sunrise would vote for Meiz which didn't happen altough Meiz thinks now that it was close.

Then deadline and Bob turned out be a scum and I says GG. And then upon looking up who Bob did vote upon day 3 and 4 and his powers. The realization slowly drawed upon me that existience of possible uberplays by Meiz faking his lost power and his day 4 play, or Lewwyn's play to defend himself at day 3 despite being scum and possilibity of Rowain faking vig shot by stealing thrawns power.
The truth is that there aren't some uberplays ongoing, the truth is that there is just simple play ongoing: Lynch Commodore who turned out be scum --> accuse townie Lewwyn of conspiring with Commodore and lynch him day 3 --> accuse Meiz of leading lynching Lewwyn and Lynch townie Meiz --> Everyone blames each other and town goes down. It is damnn that simple! simple! SIMPLE AFTER ALL! No some f*cking uberplays that turned out be exisitng in my head alone! I have been a naive fool all time since beginning of WW right now. Just a simple plan at night 1 after thrawn flipped traitor and wolves took advantage of fact that Meiz did tie together Lewwyn/Pindicator/Commdore and fact that thrawn being a traitor didn't clear Lewwyn. Then wolves bussed Commodore to start domino to fall down and Meiz wasn't faking about losing its power, it was caused by Bob's mailpower.
This plan was almost succes if not for Pindicator moving vote to Bob, This is the play that saved the town. And it took a lot courage form Pindicator to listen Meiz and join with bob train after what Pindicator went through since day 1, honestly I think that I wasn't able to do that if I did stand in Pindicator's shoes. Pindicator is a true MVP of this WW for me.


And how now onwards?
5 votes: Bobchillingworth ( Meiz, Rowain,Gaspar,GES,pindicator)
3 votes: Meiz (Jabbz, Kaiser, Alhambram)
1 votes: Kaiser (Bobchillingworth)
1 vote: Gaspar (sunrise)

I consider all five voters for bob: Meiz, Rowain, Gaspar, GES and Pindicator (you won't be forgotten) townie, because exposing Bob gives town too much information. And that is also I don't think anymore that bussing Bob is plausible. I stopped thinking about uberplays now, only looking at simple things.
Why did exposing Bob give too much information, because Bob did lurk at Pindicator and Kaiser. In case that Bob wasn't lynched but Meiz, there would still be doubt about Pinidcator and Kaiser today.
Also it do finally explain why Gazglum did die and it explains reason for Meiz losing his power at day 4. In my opnion saving Bob outweighs bussing him here. Therefore I don't consider possibilty that Bob might be bussed anymore.
And special mention for Rowain, his vig shot is more valuable now since his vig shot exposed scum lurker hiding place at day 2 at long term.

Remains four of us: Kaiser, Jabbz, Alhambram and Sunrise. 

Kaiser already felt towny for me and get extra town points because Bob was lurking him at day 4.
Jabbz is only one besides me and Sunrise and with assuming that there is two scum left, I thinks that Jabbz is one too. But I has yet to reread Jabbz and I also shall reread Kaiser for fairness.
Alhambram: fact that Bob lurked me at day 1 is NULL tell because I was naive back then to vote no lynch. Also I did vote for Commodore, Lewwyn and Meiz at day 2, 3, 4, I completely understands that I am not looking clear here.
Sunrise, after thinking that there might townie-townie neghbor setup, I conclude now that there is townie-scum setup and you are at scum side.

I am well aware that others might consider possibility that Sunrise and I am lying about being neighbor and there is just one way to find out, that is hanging one of us and check power description.

If you have more questions for me, fire away.

[Alhambram]

Saw that I forgot to explain additional reason why I thinks that GES is townie. If GES is scum, then it is very simple for him to coordinate with Sunrise to have both jump at Meiz at last moment bringing vote tally of Meiz to 5 and Bob to 4 and as result Meiz would be lynched.

[sunrise089]

@Alhambram - under your ‘simple’ explanation Meiz is town and I’m wolf, right? Why wouldn’t I just vote for Meiz then? I was clearly engaged at the end with the role claim weirdness, why not just get ‘convinced’ and vote him? Instead I pressure voted Kaiser and then when that got somewhat resolved I voted my conscience. Why is this proposed tie-break gambit on Meiz better for me than just plain joining several players voting for him outright.

Also, I’ve said I have Meiz town lean. It’s hard to emotionally divest myself from his attack on me, but I’m trying to keep perspective. I do think it at least LOOKS like setting up a mislynch to have what I assumed was a reasonably collegial discussion about my vote and then as soon as the day flips to night use that as the emotional (and bulk of the factual) case against me.