Ceiliazul Wrote:I captured and kept Commodore's capital. (The scoreboard makes that obvious) That said, my demos are middling so far, and I'm not even 1st to 3 cities. Kyan and I will have more room to expand into, but short term I still have some catching up to do. I don't think its over yet.
That explains why you sent me the turn ... I initially thought Commodore had sent it incorrectly and Nic's "Nicely done" was referring to you just forwarding it on.
I'm happy to play on and use this game as a learning curve - also safe in the knowledge that I'm not going to finish last, for once, assuming this game is actually played out and not abandoned later.
PBEM12 - Shaka of Inca [6/6*] PBEM18 (Apps) - Augustus of China [4/4*] PBEM31 - Hannibal of Greece [jnt2-4/5*] PBEM72 - Willem of Oranje - Dutch [3/4*] PBEM74A -Catherine of Babylon [4/4][*ended early]
Ceiliazul Wrote:I captured and kept Commodore's capital. (The scoreboard makes that obvious) That said, my demos are middling so far, and I'm not even 1st to 3 cities. Kyan and I will have more room to expand into, but short term I still have some catching up to do. I don't think its over yet.
I'm sorry, but this is just silly. Demo's mean little at this stage and you know it. Hi Mr Whip!
This bit is purely for lurkers and Ceiliazul:
Commodore gave up and you have just got a size 4 capital city for free. I know he also built at least 2 workers (though i suspect 3) and a settler. Those haven't been seen for some time. My best guess is you razed his second city with your warrior (the heavily promoted fella), which must have been at some long odds! As a result he has given up and thrown the game to you.
I understand you wanting to continue as it's always nice to dominate a game. I would want to continue too if I were in your shoes, but i'm not. I'm in a position where, unless you suddenly become incompetent (and you're not, you're very good), I have a 0% chance of winning. That would be fine if there was anything I could have done about that, but the way the map is set-up combined with some fortune has made winning an impossibility.
However, it's not fair on the rest of us for you to downplay your position and make us spend months and months playing for second place. Whilst I appreciate Plako's efforts and I truly do, this map has been critically flawed from the start. That is a learning for future. Trust me, I personally know how hard it is to make a map so that is no dis-service to you Plako.
Ceil, if you want a game on even terms, i'd be happy for a rematch.
Kyan Wrote:Ceil, if you want a game on even terms, i'd be happy for a rematch.
GG Ceil.
I suppose I'd be up for a rematch; but I'm not taking this as finishing 4th just because I was finally persuaded to whip myself there
FWIW Kyan, I did accidentally read your spoiler when I quoted you ... I wonder if i actually managed to build the most Workers this time [4 ]
PBEM12 - Shaka of Inca [6/6*] PBEM18 (Apps) - Augustus of China [4/4*] PBEM31 - Hannibal of Greece [jnt2-4/5*] PBEM72 - Willem of Oranje - Dutch [3/4*] PBEM74A -Catherine of Babylon [4/4][*ended early]
I wrote this on 20th February, after Plako first mused on stopping the game:
Quote:For what it's worth, I think if we're calling the game already, it's an admission that close starts simply don't work: They place too much emphasis on randoms. That's sad, because I love what I've seen of this map - it has been full of surprises.
With the caveat that close starts could still work well in a veterans' game. Needless to say, neither Ceiliazul nor myself thought that the game was a foregone conclusion at that point. IMHO, fast moving maps should cut both ways in the early stages.
CAUTION: Only for those that wish to spoil themselves:
Kyan's assessment is as close as makes no difference: Commodore moved their Settler and their first 2 Workers onto precisely the same spot, covered with only one Warrior, while stood right next our injured, but double-promoted, Warrior. The action starts on page 14.
Commodore was down at that point, but not out. Until turn 34, Spain's military consisted of just 2 Warriors. We were juggling Stonehenge, economy and expansion, and had absolutely no early plans to rush anyone. So for another 5 turns we assumed Commodore would still be able to defend their capital, and if anyone was going to rush them successfully, it would be Aggressive Kyan.
What ultimately cost Commodore their capital was spending the next 15 turns not teching Archery... a strategy about which I have nothing complementary to say. I hope Commodore didn't intentionally throw the game. All I know for sure is Commodore didn't leave their capital any more open to us than to Kyan's Veteran (who had also been hassling Commodore for a while, albeit with less dramatic consequences).
Commodore was unlucky, and we were lucky, sure. But luck did not, in itself determine the game. Rather it biased relatively how much better our position would, all other things being equal, have become. I still want to believe that Kyan could win the game, since Kyan is by far the most serious threat. But if Kyan thinks not, then I, for one, bow to them.
I agree this game is not worth continuing. Spoilers inside her so don't read, if you think the game will continue.
I don't think map was the problem here. There has been numerous maps with similar layout and distance between capitals e.g. PBEM7. It is just inevitable that in some games the farmer's gambits go wrong. Commodore made a big mistake offering big price with very small risk to Ceiliazul and then did give up and didn't even try to get to Archery. I'm sure he could have played like Dazed did in PBEM7 and keep defending until Construction. He even had some unpillageable tiles so could have produced a significant stack of archers. This game was questionable already after Ceiliazul got 3 extra workers, but almost free other capital makes it certain Ceiliazul will win especially when you don't have diplo option to handle the runaway civ.
Plako- thanks for the map. Can I get a copy of the map for SP always war?
Kyan- nicely done on the other side of the Comm choke
Dazed- I hardly knew ye
Ginger Eagle- NICE WORK defeating the choke
Everyone- you realize spoilers are shown when you get thread updates to your email right?
Timski gets 60% of the credit. The dude was crackerjack on the demos and simming. I invested more time than I planned to because he was contributing at such a high level. I'll have T-Hawk edit my thread title and make sure the pbem list shows the true nature of the Spanish win here.. go read my thread and be amazed
timski Wrote:I wrote this on 20th February, after Plako first mused on stopping the game:
With the caveat that close starts could still work well in a veterans' game. Needless to say, neither Ceiliazul nor myself thought that the game was a foregone conclusion at that point. IMHO, fast moving maps should cut both ways in the early stages.
CAUTION: Only for those that wish to spoil themselves:
Kyan's assessment is as close as makes no difference: Commodore moved their Settler and their first 2 Workers onto precisely the same spot, covered with only one Warrior, while stood right next our injured, but double-promoted, Warrior. The action starts on page 14.
Commodore was down at that point, but not out. Until turn 34, Spain's military consisted of just 2 Warriors. We were juggling Stonehenge, economy and expansion, and had absolutely no early plans to rush anyone. So for another 5 turns we assumed Commodore would still be able to defend their capital, and if anyone was going to rush them successfully, it would be Aggressive Kyan.
What ultimately cost Commodore their capital was spending the next 15 turns not teching Archery... a strategy about which I have nothing complementary to say. I hope Commodore didn't intentionally throw the game. All I know for sure is Commodore didn't leave their capital any more open to us than to Kyan's Veteran (who had also been hassling Commodore for a while, albeit with less dramatic consequences).
Commodore was unlucky, and we were lucky, sure. But luck did not, in itself determine the game. Rather it biased relatively how much better our position would, all other things being equal, have become. I still want to believe that Kyan could win the game, since Kyan is by far the most serious threat. But if Kyan thinks not, then I, for one, bow to them.
Timski and Ceiliazul, I don't for a second doubt that you may well have won the game regardless of that luck. This is kind of a tricky situation because I don't want to dis-credit your victory. You may well have won anyway, but you had some real luck here too.
Both of my neighbours decided to harass me immediately because, I assume, (due to previous games) I was perceived as the greater threat comparatively. After your impressive performance here, maybe that won't be the case in future!
As a result, you got to play your farmer's gambit in the background whilst my micro went to shite as I was in serious threat of being eliminated. As it was, I had over 20% chance of being eliminated at one point! This gave you a strong headstart (no doubt combined with excellent play on your end. Whilst you were presented with an ideal situation, you still had to have the skill to make the most of it). This was then exarcebated by some non-sensical play on Commodore's behalf. From what I understand, he pulled an 'all eggs in one basket' move and was very unlucky.
However, how he decided to behave after that is entirely irrational to me. He should, as you rightly pointed out, have teched Archery. At one point I thought he was going to give me his capital which I had already decided to raze for the integrity if he had. He, fortunately, seemed to think better of that and beat back my veteran. My unit did not have every chance of taking his capital. My odds were never above 5% because Commodore saw fit to continue bombarding him with units whilst leaving your unit (who had been far more damaging) alone. At one point, I tried and failed to signal my peaceful intentions by deliberately not pillaging his cows when I had the opportunity to do so and then retreating. That just caused him to chase me, again leaving you alone...
If this had been a diplo game, we could definitely have made something of it from here, but with no diplo, my hands were tied. I knew I had to stop you somehow but Dazed was continually harassing my backlines meaning that the only way to conceivably reign you in ever so slightly would be to throw my own game away, something I was unwilling to do.
Plako- thanks for the map. Can I get a copy of the map for SP always war?
Kyan- nicely done on the other side of the Comm choke
Dazed- I hardly knew ye
Ginger Eagle- NICE WORK defeating the choke
Everyone- you realize spoilers are shown when you get thread updates to your email right?
Timski gets 60% of the credit. The dude was crackerjack on the demos and simming. I invested more time than I planned to because he was contributing at such a high level. I'll have T-Hawk edit my thread title and make sure the pbem list shows the true nature of the Spanish win here.. go read my thread and be amazed
Timski, go join a game. NOT a greens game!
All the best mate. I'm going to enjoy reading your thread. Mine is, different...
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