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[no players] CiVI Lurking Part II: Sophomore Slump

TheArchduke is entitled to vent a bit in his own spoiler thread. Singaboy did the same thing earlier when he was on the wrong end of the 1 vs 2 war. (In contrast, I'll point out how oledavy avoided getting angry when he was in the same situation, and ably fended off both opponents without losing any cities.) These games involve a huge time commitment, and it's understandable that emotions can be running high when things aren't going well.

I don't agree of course. lol TheArchduke's starting position was perfectly fine in this game. His failure to find any city states was a function of poor scouting; Hong Kong was all of six tiles away from his capital, and he didn't find it for 25 turns. TheArchduke still hasn't done much scouting, despite having that in-game Non-Aggression Pact status with almost everyone else. Here's his minimap:




Now here's Singaboy's minimap:




And Alhambram:




If TheArchduke is only finding city states now, it's because he hasn't been looking for them. Furthermore, what exactly has been so unfair to him in this game? He attacked oledavy earlier. He attacked Singaboy earlier. This is the first time in the whole game that anyone has declared war on him. That's unfair because... something about the map? TheArchduke has played a much better game this time than in PBEM1, and he's clearly improving at Civ6. However, he isn't going to win one of these game as long as he keeps blaming everything else whenever he suffers a setback.
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(June 10th, 2017, 07:39)Sullla Wrote: I don't agree of course. lol TheArchduke's starting position was perfectly fine in this game. His failure to find any city states was a function of poor scouting; Hong Kong was all of six tiles away from his capital, and he didn't find it for 25 turns. TheArchduke still hasn't done much scouting, despite having that in-game Non-Aggression Pact status with almost everyone else. Here's his minimap:

I guess you mean Buenos Aires. HongKong is far away in the north. While I agree that Archduke's scouting was insufficient he is also right that he had only 1 CS close to him the other CS are closer to one of his opponents so his chance to get to them first were slim. OTOH as Bacchus points out the first-to bonus is just 1 envoy and not a suzerainty.

He has the problem that he is in the middle but if you are in the middle you must play the diplomacy with that in mind. After his joined war with singaboy against Oledavy he should not have switched sides.
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OleDavy Wrote:ou'll note all my builds are infrastructure. While I plan on swapping into Feudal Contract and spamming musketmen after gunpowder, I'm not building more units at present when I maybe should be. I decided it probably wasn't worthwhile to get out more crossbows in the interim. I'm already paying 16 gold per turn in unit costs, even with Conscription, and I think I have enough to take Myrmidon, even if it's a slow grinding siege. Moreover, Raid will allow me to get 50 science from mines and 100 gold from pastures, setting me up for musket upgrades and helping me keep pace with Woden while fighting this war. Even with a production bonus, any units I build will likely only arrive at the front about the time I upgrade muskets, so they would be superfluous. Meanwhile, finishing a bunch of infrastructure in the meantime offers me huge benefits. For example, I've nearly finished a granary in every city, and will shortly be getting out another Campus in Myrmidon. Moves like this will allow me to stay competitive with Woden even while fighting an existential struggle with Archduke.

I may come to regret this decision if I am just short of units, but even if I don't take Myrmidon in this initial phase of the war, I will just regard it as a temporary setback. Muskets should allow me to just roll over Archduke, double GG'd crossbows or not. Since he doesn't even have knights yet, he's definitely a long way from muskets.

I think OleDavy is *definitely* going to regret this.  It looks likely that he'll end up killing Archduke's army, but losing most of his own in the process. He'll probably get ex-Buenos Aires, but be unable to push further without at minimum a pause for healing.  If he had reinforcements coming, then he could push on to Archduke's core and take it for a much lower price than if he gives Archduke a chance to rebuild.  Needs to think of 'archduke's cities' as infrastructure that he's building indirectly, by way of units.
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(June 10th, 2017, 21:53)Mardoc Wrote:
OleDavy Wrote:ou'll note all my builds are infrastructure. While I plan on swapping into Feudal Contract and spamming musketmen after gunpowder, I'm not building more units at present when I maybe should be. I decided it probably wasn't worthwhile to get out more crossbows in the interim. I'm already paying 16 gold per turn in unit costs, even with Conscription, and I think I have enough to take Myrmidon, even if it's a slow grinding siege. Moreover, Raid will allow me to get 50 science from mines and 100 gold from pastures, setting me up for musket upgrades and helping me keep pace with Woden while fighting this war. Even with a production bonus, any units I build will likely only arrive at the front about the time I upgrade muskets, so they would be superfluous. Meanwhile, finishing a bunch of infrastructure in the meantime offers me huge benefits. For example, I've nearly finished a granary in every city, and will shortly be getting out another Campus in Myrmidon. Moves like this will allow me to stay competitive with Woden even while fighting an existential struggle with Archduke.

I may come to regret this decision if I am just short of units, but even if I don't take Myrmidon in this initial phase of the war, I will just regard it as a temporary setback. Muskets should allow me to just roll over Archduke, double GG'd crossbows or not. Since he doesn't even have knights yet, he's definitely a long way from muskets.

I think OleDavy is *definitely* going to regret this.  It looks likely that he'll end up killing Archduke's army, but losing most of his own in the process.  He'll probably get ex-Buenos Aires, but be unable to push further without at minimum a pause for healing.  If he had reinforcements coming, then he could push on to Archduke's core and take it for a much lower price than if he gives Archduke a chance to rebuild.  Needs to think of 'archduke's cities' as infrastructure that he's building indirectly, by way of units.

Looks like Ole took another beat because underestimate the human rival. Because of that in civ4 i liked to build 40% more then i believed i need...
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I hate writing this, but regarding this "underestimating human player", Oledavy simply doesn't learn.
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I have to say I'm very impressed with Alhambrams game so far. His reporting is excellent as well!

His slow start and religion focus seemed to put him out off the game very early, but I like what he has done to catch up. Either The Archduke or Woden are up for a nasty surprise when that knight train comes knocking.
Too bad Woden is too busy to report, would love to see his comments on Alhambrams development.
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I also feel sorry for oledavy, but I would never initiate a war against someone who has double Great Generals in the crossbow era when I had none myself. That's just asking to get crushed in detail. TheArchduke has a couple of double-promo crossbows which fire at 40 base strength + 10 for the double Great Generals + 12 for the two promotions = 62 strength. Oh, and they get 4 movement points too for easy repositioning each turn. eek Even knights with 48 strength die quickly; heck, the crossbows actually have a MELEE strength of 40 with the double Great Generals, stronger than swords and horses.

This attack never made much sense once oledavy failed to land the second Great General. That would have completely swung this war in his favor, but it didn't happen. Since oledavy has a significantly better science and culture rate than TheArchduke, I think he would have been well served to wait for muskets and the arrival of the third Great General, and then seek to prosecute war at that time. I know he feels pressured to make gains with Woden starting to pull away, but this opportunity just wasn't there, and trying to force it has led to disaster.

Amazingly, Alhambram is now likely the only one who has a realistic chance of stopping Woden from winning. I definitely did not see that coming.
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Yeah, when Davy made the comment that he was all in infrastructure builds just a few turns before the war, I couldn't help but think we had just seen this in the 2nd Seoul war. frown
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Multiplayer war seems to be tactical and reasonably deep, which is good. But I think the Commodore Rule is going to apply in Civ6 very well. Don't. Fight. A. Competent. Human. Opponent. Overland.
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I think Sulla made a lot of remarks during PBEM 1 that his war against archduke in that game should not be seen as representative of what wars in Civ 6 would normally look like and that usually you either need a large unit advantage or a full tier tech advantage to make serious gains and I think that is what we're seeing here


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