[NO PLAYERS] Lurking and Mapmaking PB55

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Two words:
Sequential pitboss

[mackoti]

Two words:
Sequential pitboss

Yeah , when play 10-12 players worst then a pbem .We played 5-7 year using DONT BE JERK and worked for 18 players game,even 30 once if i remeber rigth.

[Rusten]

Noble complaining that team Amica is giving SD 40 gpt, but not realizing that they (Amica) got the 312 gold up front for it.

[El Grillo]

That is delicious.

[Old Harry]

I'm afraid I'm going to wall-of text Serdoa here:

Sorry, but I could not agree less with your post nauf.

PB52 was not an issue with the rules. Mjmd wrote a PM to Pindi (recounted here) "claiming" second in the turn order. As Noble points out a few posts later, this is irrelevant. If Mjmd wanted second, he should have played second.

So, the attacker can choose which half he gets - but not if he is in a timezone that prevents him from playing second in the turn before the war. And only if there is a specific turn before the war, but what if you prepare for it while waiting for the best opportunity? You do not know which turn is the turn before you attack.

You've misunderstood the mechanic Serdoa - MJMD doesn't have to play second on the turn before the war, he just has to play second on the turn he declares war. This is entirely consistent with waiting for the best opportunity - you log in, realise this is your opportunity and log out without moving any units, wait for your target to play then declare. Even if you do move some units you're effectively allowing the opponent to double-move those units so it's not a problem.

And in the case here, Lewwyn-Gaspar-Noble are egregiously, flagrantly, adamantly, incontrovertibly in the wrong.

They camped the turn timer with no intention of stopping (as Amica, another wronged party who hasn't come up, points out). And unless I've missed it, there is zero recognition on that team's part that they're in the wrong. Charriu told them in his master-diplomat way, and I hope it landed, but Christ. If Superdeath logged in in the last two minutes and declared war and then the turn rolled, tough fucking titties. They only missed their turn because of their camping ways. We fixed this situation in a way that compromises and keeps the game going, but make no mistake, Superdeath was in the right, team LGN was guilty as sin.

I couldn't agree less and I really don't see how you come to this conclusion. There are only 4 rules to follow:

3. The person declaring war can choose which half of the turn timer they get, so long as they didn't move after the victim on the previous turn.
4. Don't try to play after another player on a regular basis. If you are trying to prevent them getting the second half when they attack you then you're playing clock games and Krill will find your pathetic civ and crush it. If you are planning to attack them then just drop behind them one or two turns in advance (it's actually less likely to telegraph your intentions). In fact you can play before them the turn before you attack - there is no problem with letting your victim double move you.
5. If you are at war with someone don't log in before/after they've played unless they have given you explicit permission. (Edit: Controversy! See thread for details...)
6. In a peace-time turn split (eg a settling or hut-popping race) the turn you realise there should be a split is when the order is established.

As far as I see you can only refer to rule no. 4 in terms of them playing "clock games" but that rule states that you should try not to play after another player on a regular basis. Try does indicate that this is a suggestion not a hard rule that has to be followed. And regular is an unspecified amount of times. Is 5 turns already regular? Not in my book.

And no. 6 lists examples of peace-time turn splits which indicates that there can be more cases than these. As it states in that rule [i]"The turn you realise there should be a split is when the order is established"[i], meaning there can be peace-time turn splits for several turns and for an undefined number of reasons. How is team LGN in the wrong for adhering to a peace-time turn split in order to prevent double-moving their opponent? The reason "War could happen any turn, we attack in T-5 or earlier if the opportunity arises" is not against the rules. The rules also state nothing about having to inform the other party about the turn-split you adhere to.

Number 6 is about races to get things like cities or huts and if the alternative is the civforum coin-toss I'd rather have our rule which encourages players to pyft in the hope you'll get the benefit. Number 6 was never intended to be about peacetime-wartime splits. Do we need to re-word it so that that is clear?

The reason it can't be applied except in these specific race situations is because you are effectively at war with all the other players in the game from the moment you begin. Sure, there's a lot of diplomacy and talk about having good relations, but there can be only one winner, so if we took rule 6 to apply to war time it would have to apply from the moment you meet someone.

The cause of the sheer inability to see the other side is, I think, what civac pointed out in the etiquette thread: team LGN have a notion of turn splits that is not included in the rules in which players with hostile feeling ought to maintain a turn split. This is garbage.

Why? Which part of the rules forbids that? Having been around back at the day, AFAIK that was exactly one of the issues in most games: Double-moves that happened because no turn-split was adhered to before war started. I also point to my above statement about hostile intentions that could at every turn lead to war. If you expect that you could start the fireworks between now and 10 turns, you have to adhere to a turn split every turn, else you will double-move.

And on that note: I also see nothing in the rules stating that you have to attack the next turn if you adhered to a turn split the turn before. Just because I intended to attack on T99 does not mean I will go through with it on T100. What if I wait now, if some units are moved around in a favorable way for me? Again, a turn split outside of war has to be followed, not despite but to be in accordance with the rules.

Again this is a misunderstanding of the rule - you can allow the target to double-move you and you only need to be in second place on the turn you declare.

There's a way for hostile players to require a turn split. You hold down the "alt" key and then press on the offending player's name. Done. The staggering tone-deafness Gaspar displayed in complaining in the etiquette thread that the rules were inadequate while he was in the process of breaking them boggles the mind. I read this:

The current rule - attacker chooses sounds great.  But if I recognize my opponent is preparing for war, all I have to do is attack him and I can get the turnsplit I want. 

And promptly had an aneurysm. If you know all you have to do to get a turn split is to attack, why didn't you?!!?!?!??! He goes on to say that we need to reduce player agency when the evidence that we need to do so is his own team's misbehavior. At this point, I feel like I must have eaten my entire bottle of crazy pills.

Because if I follow your logic to the end, we play always war. If you require players to declare war as soon as the possibility arises that sometimes down the line there will be war, then this is the only way to resolve it. SD and LGN would stay at war indefinitely because neither would want to give up going second. Or do we add something in the rules that you also have to attack? War weariness isn't a factor IIRC so the only reason to maybe consider peace is gone at that point. Oh, and while we are at it, they also have to declare on Amica, same reasoning. Now we already have 3 parties that need to get in some turn order. But if I followed the game correctly, there are more parties that are or could go at war, someone else maybe that attacks  Amica? And all of them would have - following this to its logical conclusion - to declare war in order to claim second half, even if they do not intend to go to war right now but only in a few turns. If you have several neighbors, maybe declare against all of them, as to not tip one off to your impending attack. At that point, we can play PBEM / sequential PB as well, would probably even be faster...

Eh? Nauf is arguing that there shouldn't be an indefinite war because that's bad for the turn timer. He thinks that you shouldn't "declare war as soon as the possiblility arises" because of the exact problems you outline. The rule to negate this is simple: PYFT until the turn you declare war, then play in the half you want (if you haven't double moved).

Alright, ranting is very fun, but I'll reel it in. Team LGN are blatantly in the wrong. They seem to have the honest belief that hostilities between neighbors allow the various neighbors to camp the turn timer indefinitely. While against clearly against the rules, this belief seems genuinely held. The problem is not the ambiguity or even the ineffectiveness of our rules, rather certain players' misunderstandings. Therefore, we should all be kind to each other, Jowy.

As listed above, I do not see how what they do is against the rules. I would love if you could not just make that statement but actually point to the exact rule you think they have broken and how they did so.

They are camping the turn timer. This means that eg Gavagai can't attack them and claim the second half of the timer. They don't need to camp the turn timer until the turn they declare. If someone else declares on them before the turn they plan to declare then they have to suck it up, it's the only way simultaneous turns work. If you can't deal with that then play sequential.

That there were no issues for the last 3 years with them - according to Old Harry - says imo more about the games and players than about the rules.

Agreed.

Also sorry if I sound a bit ranty, but it really does seem like a simple situation to me, so I may have repeated myself a few times.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Predictions on the game going forward? Gaswyn are gonna roll over SD sooner or later, gav is going to have a massive empire if he's able to get some of the islands west of him and AT, civac has an early lead. Everyone else seems to be kingmaker at best. I don't see any great opportunities for Jowy, amica is stuck between two others and doesn't seem to have much of a plan.

[Tarkeel]

I think Civac will devour AT, and in turn be devoured by Gavagai.

[Old Harry]

I think Civac will devour AT, and in turn be devoured by Gavagai.

Geostrategically, Gavagai is the logical target for more expansion for the same reason AT was. He is big but seems to have issues with his economy. Still a knight attack against 20 cities worth of elephants and catapult seems foolish. We are big enough to get to rifles via endless GAs, FIN and AT's shrine.

I don't think Civac will be devoured by Gav, especially if he doesn't make the mistake of sending a stack of knights to be eaten by cats and wellies. Waiting for rifles is a bit passive though - hopefully he'll find a way to gain more land before then (Amicalola is probably the best target, but that assumes Gav will sit back and let him which isn't a given).

Impressive game from Civac so far.

[Erwin]

I don't think Civac needs more land before steel/rifles/cuirs, whichever way he'll go. Chaining MoM GAs with Taj should be enough for victory, particularly if/when Gav is demoralized.

E: There is a reason Krill made MoM obsolete with nationalism.

[Charriu]

I think Civac will devour AT, and in turn be devoured by Gavagai.

Geostrategically, Gavagai is the logical target for more expansion for the same reason AT was. He is big but seems to have issues with his economy. Still a knight attack against 20 cities worth of elephants and catapult seems foolish. We are big enough to get to rifles via endless GAs, FIN and AT's shrine.

I don't think Civac will be devoured by Gav, especially if he doesn't make the mistake of sending a stack of knights to be eaten by cats and wellies. Waiting for rifles is a bit passive though - hopefully he'll find a way to gain more land before then (Amicalola is probably the best target, but that assumes Gav will sit back and let him which isn't a given).

Impressive game from Civac so far.

Especially considering the friendly takeover of Ruff_Hi.