The Haunted Forest: Mardoc puts the Sidar to the test.

[Thoth]

Two waneables in the north?

Two Gms in Pacman. We can use the food and the gold will keep us afloat with warrior spam (plus the GodKing bonus)

[Mardoc]

If he's still sitting on the fence, how fast can we raise our apparent power? warrs are 3k, not sure about SoKs and Thanes (which are a pipe dream right now, we don't have any temples complete). If he thinks we'll be a tough slog, you might be able to talk him into going elsewhere.

Thanes are 6K, SoK are 8 - but we can't 1 turn either of those, and in fact SoK are more like 3-turns, so Power is probably best with warriors for now. Axemen are at 8K as well, we might be able to 1-turn them with Waned Engineers (or upgrade to them), but of course not until after we build a Training yard. And they don't defend cities any better than warriors.

If he's noncommittal or hostile then assume the worst.

Yeah

2 north wanes and one south?

Hrm. One Merchant (pacman) and one Eng (Asteroids) for sure. Pacman can already build a warrior a turn, and is only a couple of tile improvements and a building away from an axe or an archer per turn sans engineer. How many turns will it take to get to Asteroids vs Pacman?

Two waneables in the north?

Two Gms in Pacman. We can use the food and the gold will keep us afloat with warrior spam (plus the GodKing bonus)

3 turns to travel. Plus - both of the northern wanables are outside the city, 1 turn for the first to arrive and 2 for the second. It all depends on when Serdoa comes, I guess. I'll start with the Engineer in the south, I think that might be enough bpt to get our Bronze in a turn early and then I'm fine with delaying the last Wane settlement for a while.

In fact - we made 65 beakers last turn. We'll presumably make the same next turn, after which we can settle the southern wane, who brings us up by 4.5 (rounded up), to 70 bpt. Three turns of 70 + 2@65 = 340. So even if I'm off by a turn on settling him due to counting the Wane process wrong, that still gets us Bronze in 5. In which case - sure, let's actually pay for our army, why not? . I just have this horrible feeling that that turn off of Bronze may turn out to be important.

All things considered - I'm going to watch the demos like a hawk. If it's 2+ turns from now until Serdoa's last GNP dies, then that gives us time to make it to Bronze for sure and I'll be happy again.

[Thoth]

The 4.5 beakers gets rounded down. But we are getting a 20% boost to our beakers thanks to the known pre-req bonus.

Here's a thought: We can one turn warriors in Asteroids and 1 t Scouts in Pacman. Scout-->DS is 53 gold. With 2 more GMs in Pacman we can make about 70gpt at 100% cash. If it's 5 turns to Bronze we should be able to build and upgrade 4 scouts-->DSes with our cash on hand before bronze arrives.

That would give us a very nice spike in the power graph (41 k for 4 new DSs, 1 scout and 2 new warriors (5 built - 3 wanes) ) plus a mobile force of 6 DSs plus our static defenses (warriors and Uber Archers).

That would give us 1 uber archer + 6 warriors in each city and the ability to re-inforce either city with 6 DSs.

If you have previous saves, it would be worth checking the last couple of turns GNP numbers. Moving a stack of 12-15 units outside his territory will produce a noticeable drop in GNP and should let us know when he launches his forces (assuming they aren't already on their way).

Also, if we can arrange it....the three Forested hills to the south of Asteroids could be chopped/mined with the chops going into a training yard in Asteroids. Warrior-->Axe is only 33g.

[Mardoc]

The 4.5 beakers gets rounded down. But we are getting a 20% boost to our beakers thanks to the known pre-req bonus.

Already took the prereq into account. But I phrased myself badly on the rounding, I think. We already have an Engineer in Asteroids, producing 4.5 beakers that rounds to 4. That means when we add our second Engineer, he takes the total to 9, which rounds to 9, so he's worth 5 bpt.

Here's a thought: We can one turn warriors in Asteroids and 1 t Scouts in Pacman. Scout-->DS is 53 gold. With 2 more GMs in Pacman we can make about 70gpt at 100% cash. If it's 5 turns to Bronze we should be able to build and upgrade 4 scouts-->DSes with our cash on hand before bronze arrives.

That would give us a very nice spike in the power graph (41 k for 4 new DSs, 1 scout and 2 new warriors (5 built - 3 wanes) ) plus a mobile force of 6 DSs plus our static defenses (warriors and Uber Archers).

That would give us 1 uber archer + 6 warriors in each city and the ability to re-inforce either city with 6 DSs.

I like it. I'm not sure I'll go all-out for DS's - but they're our only realistic hope for a decent counterattacking unit, so we do want a fair number of them.

I actually think, though, that I'll build at least half the scouts in Asteroids, and move them to Pacman to upgrade. Our forces are currently balanced pretty unevenly, since the bulk of the barbs have consistently been in the south - we need more in the Pacman area anyway.

Also, if we can arrange it....the three Forested hills to the south of Asteroids could be chopped/mined with the chops going into a training yard in Asteroids. Warrior-->Axe is only 33g.

We'll see. It mainly depends on how much time we have, and when/where Serdoa comes.

And...we have a turn.

First piece of good news: Serdoa has nearly the same demos, so he's still inside his own borders. He did add another horseman - but it's looking much more likely that we have decent troops to fight with if/when he shows.


Second piece of good news - two Wanes are now in cities - next turn they can turn into our super-specialists. One more Wane en route. I'm assuming there's no reason to stop fighting barbs, especially if there's a good chance of being pillaged into the stone age in the next few turns, so warriors are still out collecting XP. We might well get another Wane or two by the time Serdoa comes, which would let us continue an economy while hiding.

Third piece of good news - we've finally found the vamps. Starting next turn, I ought to be able to hit up Selrahc and see what he's willing to divulge. Also what he knows.


So, to sum up? This turn we're building a scout and warrior, to turn into more troops. We've got a road on the copper, and the Wanes in position to cut a turn off its ETA. The plan progresses.

Next turn we ought to be able to collect another dozen or so XP.

Haven't heard anything back from Serdoa - but Bob did us the favor of dramatically boosting his GNP this turn - enough of a boost that I would guess he's teching Archery at the moment with both prereqs. If there's hope of turning Serdoa elsewhere, that's the cause right there.

[Thoth]

Bad news on the diplo. I don't know Serdoa, I've never played a game against him so I don't have a feel for what he's like diplomaticly. Figure on getting hit sometime soon. His GNP took a big drop roughly 8-10 turns ago (which matches a mass exploration effort in terms of ETA for the warrior that just paid us a visit). He's looking for a target, and the target is likely us.

On the bright side, I don't think he has mining yet. If he did, he'd have improved the gold and it would show in his GNP. (if the mined gold is in fact included in his gnp, then he's already launched his rush against someone else...don't count on it.)

Erm. Wandering warriors are a bit of a bad thing atm. We'll want every edge we can get vs Warcried Aggressive Horsemen. We need some *fortified* promoted warriors in both Pacman and Asteroids.

I agree with the currently planned Waning (2 GMs in Pacman, 1 GE in Asteroids) but hold off on the Waning after that until we've resolved things with the Hippus

And be careful with our current DS's. They're starting to turn into decent units and we can't afford to lose them vs barbs with an immanent threat from the Hippos. I think C3 as their 10xp promo, with Formation at 17.

I had a look at the current save and a few things to note:

1) Serdoa's warrior has disappeared. We need a sentry in the North (1 tile east of the northern ph tile signed "scorch). A new built warrior with G1/C1 on that tile will give us and extra turn or two of warning (well worth the hammer IMO) and a decent shot at doing some damage to a highly promoted Horsman before it dies.

2) City builds: We're producing more than 16h + surplus food in both Asteroids and Pacman. Dump the excess hammers into Pallisades once they are 1 turn builds (t 68 for Pacman...too late...next turn. not sure about Asteroids but a turn or two more should do it.

Warcried HM are tough bastards and we'll be fighting at a strength disadvantage even with DS's and copper warriors.

3) Tech: I think we go Archery after Bronze. Archers are the best defense against Shock I and II units and they don't require a resource to get to full strength. If Serdoa decides to choke us rather than attack our cities, Archers will give us a very good shot at surviving once his reinforcements arrive. If we don't get rushed, the extra hammers from chops, lumbermills and Archery Ranges/Archers are enough to justify the tech cost. It's not like we can't find something other than Libraries to build in Pacman/Asteroids.

4) I think we're going to get Warcry rushed. Serdoa's build up started pretty much the moment we made contact. This might be a co-incidence, and he's actually going for Selrahc's Vamps. But, a deal with the Vamps vs the late bloomers (us and Bob) makes sense from both sides.

He's almost certainly going after either us or Selrahc. Possibly this is an anti-barb city force with the intent to go to war with highly promoted HA's but I highly doubt it.

The $10,000 dollar question is: When does he plan to hit us? And where?

When I don't know. The longer he waits, the better for us but bet on sooner rather than later.

Where....depends on where his scouting warrior shows up next. I think we should have a greeting party of DS's (our current two once they've promoted to C3 and healed) ready if his warrior shows up in the south. If it does, dial him up on chat and either get at least a 10t NAP out of him (start by asking for 20turns, aim for 15, settle for 10) or kill the damn warrior. Preferably after renaming the DS to something like "Iron Axe"

For the moment, we need to pull back into a defensive posture. Attack out of Asteroids to preserve our Hamlets/cottages/specials vs barbs but other than that, we need some *fortified* units in our cities. Some of the Warriors in Asteroids need to move north to fortify and defend Pacman.

[Mardoc]

Erm. Wandering warriors are a bit of a bad thing atm. We'll want every edge we can get vs Warcried Aggressive Horsemen. We need some *fortified* promoted warriors in both Pacman and Asteroids.


I agree with the currently planned Waning (2 GMs in Pacman, 1 GE in Asteroids) but hold off on the Waning after that until we've resolved things with the Hippus

These are related, of course. I suppose you're right, this is part and parcel of PANIC! We can always take back our land and reimprove it in a few turns if we have those turns. I will still take fights in the south, especially where we can attack out and return in a single turn, but otherwise you're right, time to start building fortification bonuses and not let Serdoa have a chance to kill our military for free.

And be careful with our current DS's. They're starting to turn into decent units and we can't afford to lose them vs barbs with an immanent threat from the Hippos. I think C3 as their 10xp promo, with Formation at 17.

Sounds good. I know I promoted them at 10XP already, but I'll aim for a combination of Formation and Combat.

1) Serdoa's warrior has disappeared. We need a sentry in the North (1 tile east of the northern ph tile signed "scorch). A new built warrior with G1/C1 on that tile will give us and extra turn or two of warning (well worth the hammer IMO) and a decent shot at doing some damage to a highly promoted Horsman before it dies.

Hmm, ok, I'll set that up directly.

2) City builds: We're producing more than 16h + surplus food in both Asteroids and Pacman. Dump the excess hammers into Pallisades once they are 1 turn builds (t 68 for Pacman...too late...next turn. not sure about Asteroids but a turn or two more should do it.

Warcried HM are tough bastards and we'll be fighting at a strength disadvantage even with DS's and copper warriors.

Are you sure that =10% is worth more than an extra body? I agree Palisades would be excellent once we want to stop spamming due to maintenance costs - but it's only 10%.

Or, well - if we've really got production to play with, get a couple temples/Thanes built. Or toss the hammers into more DS's and later on axes.

3) Tech: I think we go Archery after Bronze. Archers are the best defense against Shock I and II units and they don't require a resource to get to full strength. If Serdoa decides to choke us rather than attack our cities, Archers will give us a very good shot at surviving once his reinforcements arrive. If we don't get rushed, the extra hammers from chops, lumbermills and Archery Ranges/Archers are enough to justify the tech cost. It's not like we can't find something other than Libraries to build in Pacman/Asteroids.

Here I'm reluctant. I tend to think it should be either KotE or HBR, actually. This is why:

Well, ok, half of why. The other half is that Archery ranges are expensive. I think by the time we can get archers on the field, we've either survived or lost. In which case we'd do better to get some mobility and start picking off his units rather than try to stack up archers behind walls. Potentially adding adept spells to the mix (if this drags on) is a nice bonus - all four spells are directly relevant to a siege, for sure.

4) I think we're going to get Warcry rushed. Serdoa's build up started pretty much the moment we made contact. This might be a co-incidence, and he's actually going for Selrahc's Vamps. But, a deal with the Vamps vs the late bloomers (us and Bob) makes sense from both sides.

He's almost certainly going after either us or Selrahc. Possibly this is an anti-barb city force with the intent to go to war with highly promoted HA's but I highly doubt it.

Well - it started right when he hit Conquest. But I agree it's a Warcry rush force, he doesn't need this much if his target is the barbs. And he's crippling any other chance he might have - he has to gain something significant from this or he's just out of it.

The $10,000 dollar question is: When does he plan to hit us? And where?

When I don't know. The longer he waits, the better for us but bet on sooner rather than later.

Where....depends on where his scouting warrior shows up next. I think we should have a greeting party of DS's (our current two once they've promoted to C3 and healed) ready if his warrior shows up in the south. If it does, dial him up on chat and either get at least a 10t NAP out of him (start by asking for 20turns, aim for 15, settle for 10) or kill the damn warrior. Preferably after renaming the DS to something like "Iron Axe"

Mmm, that's true, any killing we can do on our terms is a nice bonus. And any scouting prevention. And any Bronze hinting (just going to name them Axeman, btw, Iron doesn't show up normally in the log).

[Mardoc]

[COLOR="Lime"]Hi Mardoc,

well, I am not sure if you really expect me to tell you "No, I won't target
you", just so that you go on to build nothing but econ-stuff? I mean, the
vampires are my neighbours and certainly more scary then you or Bob,
but that doesn't mean I'd want you guys to not be on your toes.

That said, what are you offering for a NAP? If it is good enough, I might
still agree to it. Just keep in mind what you win economically if you are
secured by a NAP and then offer a fair share

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

Hmm. This is...quite good news, potentially. If we figure out what to offer that Serdoa would be willing to accept. (and if he's actually interested in negotiating, rather than just trying to lull us to complacency). My first thought is to offer gold - something on the order of 25 gpt, with a relatively direct path to Currency so he's not waiting forever to get his money. Although we'd still definitely want to pick up Bronze at least as insurance.

If we're going to do this the peaceful way, I'd probably best start negotiating now. Maybe I'm giving away the farm here, but I sent this in reply:

[COLOR="Silver"]Mostly I was looking to find out whether tribute is an option, or if you're committed to coming my way. I understand that now you've built a military, you need to try to get something for it. Just the same, I'd prefer to keep my tile improvements

What are you interested in? I'm sure I could pay in workers. I can't pay gold at the moment, but I could bump Currency up my tech queue and pay gold in the near future. Or I could offer Temples to Kilmorph (via Stonewardens). Which type of payment interests you most?

As a starting point, how does something like 20 gpt sound? With workers/temples convertable at 1 hammer = 1 gold, if you are interested in those. For duration - it needs to be long enough to give me time to get to Currency and save up the gold, of course. Maybe something like 40 turns?

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

Now, am I interested in long term peace with Serdoa? Heck no! We want to rule the world! But am I willing to pay for another 30-40 turns to build? Yep! Square Leg demonstrated the value of a deal like that to me quite conclusively back in PBEM 5. Fact is, between Libraries/lesser maintenance cost/keeping our cottages, it's already worth 20 gpt - and this ignores the chance of death . Oh, also the value in being able to build a few more Wanes instead of having to keep the units around.

And...I'm definitely going to keep going flat out for a reasonable defensive force while we negotiate. It can only help the negotiating position, and he might not actually be serious about giving peace a chance.

So, Thoth, what do you think? Am I a pushover? Or is it worth the cash to redirect Serdoa?

[Kyan]

So, Thoth, what do you think? Am I a pushover? Or is it worth the cash to redirect Serdoa?

I think the proof will be in the pudding so to speak. i.e. in his response.

Personally, i think you went in too fast, too quick. However, Serdoa has never made any sense to me whatsoever, so maybe this is the right tact to get him onboard.

Either way, it's done now so i wouldn't worry about it. :neenernee

[Mardoc]

I think the proof will be in the pudding so to speak. i.e. in his response.

Personally, i think you went in too fast, too quick. However, Serdoa has never made any sense to me whatsoever, so maybe this is the right tact to get him onboard.

Either way, it's done now so i wouldn't worry about it. :neenernee

Hmm, thanks for the input. I'll admit, I was thinking more from the perspective of 'if he accepts this offer, is it still worth doing', not 'is this message likely to convince him to accept'. But of course both pieces are worth keeping in mind.

Fingers crossed!

[Thoth]

Hmm. This is...quite good news, potentially. If we figure out what to offer that Serdoa would be willing to accept. (and if he's actually interested in negotiating, rather than just trying to lull us to complacency). My first thought is to offer gold - something on the order of 25 gpt, with a relatively direct path to Currency so he's not waiting forever to get his money. Although we'd still definitely want to pick up Bronze at least as insurance.

If we're going to do this the peaceful way, I'd probably best start negotiating now. Maybe I'm giving away the farm here, but I sent this in reply:


Now, am I interested in long term peace with Serdoa? Heck no! We want to rule the world! But am I willing to pay for another 30-40 turns to build? Yep! Square Leg demonstrated the value of a deal like that to me quite conclusively back in PBEM 5. Fact is, between Libraries/lesser maintenance cost/keeping our cottages, it's already worth 20 gpt - and this ignores the chance of death . Oh, also the value in being able to build a few more Wanes instead of having to keep the units around.

And...I'm definitely going to keep going flat out for a reasonable defensive force while we negotiate. It can only help the negotiating position, and he might not actually be serious about giving peace a chance.

So, Thoth, what do you think? Am I a pushover? Or is it worth the cash to redirect Serdoa?

Fuck.

I really hope you didn't send that.

No tribute. If he wants to throwaway his game for Selrahc and Bob then that's his choice. If he wants to try and rush us we will be the rock that breaks him.

If he is willing to sign a NAP with an eye to taking down either the Vamps and or the Elfs fine. But we're not going to pay him a fucking cent in tribute. We can fight him to a stalemate. It'll hurt us, and maybe cost the game but I'm not willing to give up cash vs a potential maybe rush. For all we know, he's already moving on the Vampires.

Remind him that if he moves on us, he's trying to take on the second most powerful military in the world. In an era that favours defence. And we have a couple of Invisible Scouts on the board to fuck with people's workers (no need to let him know that our nearest Scout is 4/5 turns away )

Keep on with the military buildup, it won't go to waste in any event.

Also, you may want to mention that we'll have copper hooked next turn. (no need to mention the fact that we won't have Bronze for a couple of turns after that )

Archery/Archery Ranges: Archery is cheap (with both pre-reqs), Archers are better at city defence than Copper Warriors, are cheap with EitB, are awesome vs Shock units (Combined Arms mate, it's win) and even with the Horsemen bonus are still stronger than non-copper warriors....having our copper pillaged is a likely event if we war with Serdoa soon.

And one way or another, if Serdoa isn't willing to sign some deals in our favour, we will have war with him soon. Preferably on our terms, but he's too close to us to have him sitting on the fence. We need more military (for barbs if Serdoa co-operates) or for anti Serdoa forces ASAP.