New Civilization 5 Expansion - Brave New World

[Mardoc]

Jowy,

Although I agree with your general concern about serious subjects in games, I think this is the wrong point to argue.

I'm personally of the opinion that a ban on Nazi speech only works as long as no one seriously wants to revive the subject. In other words, it only works as long as it's not necessary. It's not really possible to suppress speech people care about without becoming evil in your methods. The next major war, although it will have a lot to do with intolerance and hatred, is exceedingly unlikely to be officially Nazi.

But...I also think this should be the last priority for free speech advocates, not the first priority. As you mention, there are a great many hurdles for games to overcome, only one of which is the Nazi-speech ban.

Besides. What if free speech absolutism is wrong on this subject? I personally believe that Germany's ban is very unlikely to have any positive effect, taking everything into account. But...if I'm right, the world misses out on some potential art and history. If I'm wrong - 50 million deaths is an awful lot. I'm not *that* confident in my beliefs. Especially since I'm not German.

[Sisu]

Jowy, I'm not against Hitler or Stalin showing up in games, or even games that examine what they did from a perspective of someone within their organizations. I am uncomfortable with them in Civilization because, as I said earlier, I never want to read "Hitler, it's your duty to lead Germany to greatness!" written unironically.

[Jowy]

But...I also think this should be the last priority for free speech advocates, not the first priority. As you mention, there are a great many hurdles for games to overcome, only one of which is the Nazi-speech ban.

Agreed.

[Kurumi]

Including Hitler and Stalin is basically saying "they are the leaders who deserve to be a projected image of their people".
People hate Stalin.
Everywhere and everyone. Even Stalin himself.

[Bigger]

iirc, Germany has some laws on the books that might make that difficult (if your goal is to be able to sell the game in Germany)- or maybe that's just for the symbols instead of the faces?

its just the swastika, not any historical figures.

All symbols and propaganda are forbidden including Hitlers book 'Mein Kampf'. Anything that puts that regime to glory. A game where you can play Hitler himself and wipe out other civs will find it hard to become legal.

ok, look. I've played Hearts of Iron II, a lot. the makers used the Iron cross instead of the swastika for the German flag so it could be sold in Germany. But Hitler is in the game, as is Himmler, Hiedrich, and many other German political figures during the time. There are also many triggered events from German history during that time, and its fairly easy to conquer Europe or even the world with Germany if you don't make the same mistakes the Nazi's did. so I don't see why they would allow a paradox game w/ Hitler into the country and not a Firaxis game.

[Serdoa]

Bigger, in certain circumstances that is possible. But I would agree with Rowain that a Civ5 with Hitler in it would be hard to sell in Germany. Even if you get permission, the fallout in the media would be big. There is a difference between a AAA-title and Hearts of Iron. Also according to Wikipedia:

"Additionally, in the German version of the game, pictures of leading Nazi leaders, such as Hitler, Göring, and Himmler were removed and their names subsequently altered, though this is not required under German censorship laws, and is not the case in non-German versions of the game."

So it seems they altered it as to not even had to discuss those issues in Germany.

Edit: And I'm not certain as to how accurate Wikipedia is in regards to that not being required under German law. I think it is not as easy as to say "you can use Hitlers name". Their is more to it than that (as always with Laws).

[Bigger]

what do you mean AAA title? I don't think sales of the Civ franchise are that much bigger than Paradox games

I think the censorship policy is quite absurd, really (not that you care)

[Katon]

iirc, Germany has some laws on the books that might make that difficult (if your goal is to be able to sell the game in Germany)- or maybe that's just for the symbols instead of the faces?

its just the swastika, not any historical figures.

All symbols and propaganda are forbidden including Hitlers book 'Mein Kampf'. Anything that puts that regime to glory. A game where you can play Hitler himself and wipe out other civs will find it hard to become legal.

ok, look. I've played Hearts of Iron II, a lot. the makers used the Iron cross instead of the swastika for the German flag so it could be sold in Germany. But Hitler is in the game, as is Himmler, Hiedrich, and many other German political figures during the time. There are also many triggered events from German history during that time, and its fairly easy to conquer Europe or even the world with Germany if you don't make the same mistakes the Nazi's did. so I don't see why they would allow a paradox game w/ Hitler into the country and not a Firaxis game.

Paradox games tend to be much more about simulating history than Civ, and much less about building your own ideal empire. That different emphasis means that having Hitler as an available leader comes across very differently - he's the guy who historically was in charge during the time period Hearts of Iron deals with, rather than the defining leader of German civilization. It also means that it's possible to have a non-Hitler leader in Civ, whereas having someone else in charge for Hearts of Iron would be impossible to take seriously with the obvious purpose of the game.

[Rowain]

@Bigger

§86 + §86a of the german law state very clearly that any signs, flags, parts of uniform, greetings, paroles etc are forbidden. (Austria is far less strict in this regard but as we are a far smaller market the german version do follow the german law)

The game Return to castle Wolfenstein where you kill Nazis had to remove the swastika, alter all the pictures and also remove the names (for example Himmler became Hoeller and the 'Fuhrer' became the 'Leitwolf') , change melodies and more in the german version. In fact they changed the compleete story from fighting Nazis to fighting a wolfsclan.

[Bigger]

Rowain, don't be an ass. I didn't speak about anything I didn't know about.