Dave's Not Throwing Away His Shot

[oledavy]

Turn 60 - The Gamble

Exciting turn, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention this. 



My campus is still producing science...

I can only assume it's a bug - although a quick search online revealed nothing. I imagine Singaboy is quite frustrated about this, but I have to say I am too. If I manage to win this thing, I don't want my opponents to be able to say it was because of a favorable game bug. At any rate, I don't think there's anything to do about it. I'm tempted to post in the organizing thread, but realistically nothing will come of it. If any of the lurkers have insight into this, please share. I just don't know what there is to do about it that won't scupper a game that everyone seems to be enjoying quite a bit. 

Okay, onto the main event. 



Archduke took the do not pass go, do not collect $200 option, and pushed on with the two horses he used to take BA, and brought another one up from Mykenes. Things are starting to look really scary, and I'm a little nervous about my ability to hold Lafayette from his northern force. On the bright side, Schuyler's walls finished when I hit end turn, so I should be solid there for quite some time. 

In the east, Seoul produced another archer, and Singaboy ate a couple archer bolts as he brought up his second sword. 

Alrght, so the titular gamble. I don't know if that southwestern horse can cross the river onto the stone tile. If he can, gets the kill, and captures the builder, that completely scuppers my plan to get the walled encampment out next turn. I'm pretty sure he can't cross, but in case he can, I moved the warrior nearby to provide a supporting unit bonus. The archer fortified, and is on a hill behind a river. Worst case scenario, if he gets two horsemen over here for support and flanking, it will be 45 strength to 25 - not enough to one hit kill. So, with that in mind, I think I'll be okay. Here are all my moves. 



Continuing the process of retreating and redeploying. I'm not confident in my ability to hold Lafayette at this point, but there's only one way to find out. I desperately need a horseman of my own on the field over here so I can deliver a killing blow to a unit, or stick it in the city itself. The good news is that if Archduke wants to press ahead, he's going to outrun his supporting archers west and south of BA. No though, I think his next move is to pillage the horse pasture. Thankfully, I already have two horsemen in production (I just need to have the resources when I start building them). Afterwards, I can switch to building heavy chariots, which will upgrade into knights sooner rather than later and still get the production bonus. Around Lafayette, I'm hoping intelligent use of my warriors and harassment from my archers will prevent him from taking the city. He realistically needs to expose his horsemen to significant counter-attack in order to do so, and has no farms to pillage. He may wait for his supporting forces or just pillage for now and come back when he has collected all three of his horsemen in the same place. The completion of the encampment will cut him off from reinforcement, however, and may force him to make some tough decisions. 

In the east, I'm waiting for Singaboy to commit to his attack, so I can circle around and hit his archers with my horseman. My archer should be able to start peppering him next turn. 

No though, we'll get the answer to a lot of questions next turn. Barring anything completely unforseen, I'll be chopping out the encampment (fingers crossed). I hope I don't get a weird bug where his horse is on the hill, I complete it in the middle of the turn, and the horse stays there and can pillage the encampment immedietly. Next big event is t66, when I'll upgrade my first swordsmen. I switched back to working the cotton tile in Hamilton. I think each upgrade costs 80 gold, so I am aiming to get 160 as soon as possible for two upgrades. 

My neighbors' armies continue to grow: 



Getting a little scary over here. 

So, at the beginning of the turn, Construction and Games & Recreation came in. I queued up Military Training and Iron Working, and took one last look at my autocracy: 



Before switching to Oligarchy: 



On the right defensive terrain, my warriors now don't get just slaughtered 

No though, I think everything here is fairly self-explanatory, please tell me if you have any questions. I subbed out Inspiration because it will be some time before I can activate a GS, thanks to the zombie campus, and the extra gold is just more useful right now.

Diplomatic League allowed me to put my newly completed envoy into Hattusa. Yay plus two science. 

No though, I think that just about covers it. Here's hoping for no surprises going into next turn. 

Turn 60 Totals:

Thermopylae Culture: 78
Zombie Campus Science: 8

[Zero_1627]

Good planning with Hattusa - I like it!

Just hold on Schuyler and it's encampment in the meantime - although if You do manage to get up Walled Encampment before it's pillaged You'll have good chances for that i think.

Military Training: I assume You'll have boost for that in time )))

How does attacking work - it eats all remaining movement points? Or a fixed amount? If it's not all of them, could You have attacked Singaboy's Swordsman and then withdrawn out of counterattack range?

Also: You're effectively pincered between two strong opponents (who seem to be producing military units at war rates, which isn't surprising). These aren't spoiling attacks, they're there for blood... Hold the line! Upgrading Warriors to Swordsmen should help tremendously , but it's not immediate future.

[oledavy]

oledavy

I just wanted to drop a line and let you know I noticed that my campus is still producing 4 science per turn. I can only assume it's a bug, and can find nothing about it online. 

At any rate, I have no idea what to do about it. We can take this to the organizing thread if you would prefer, but at the risk of alerting others to the nature of our war, I thought a private message was better. 

Anyway, let me know what you want to do. 

Dave

Thanks for your message. No wonder I did not see your science rate drop at all and still displaying this.
This is most unfortunate, as my decision to pillage the campus was solely based on your science rate. It cost me valuable time to do sth I wanted to do all along (as you can guess). This is a quite severe bug, isnt it. What are we going to do about it?

Maybe we should consult the rest as this has quite an impact on both of us.

It is a real pity that it has to come to such a blatant bug...

Let me know what you think about alerting the rest. I am fine with it. Thanks for highlighting it

If you feel strongly about bringing this to the attention of the other players, I'm not opposed. However, my concern is that it would not do any good to do so, and just cast a pall over a game that everyone seems to be really enjoying.

At present, I have a post in my thread highlighting the issue and asking lurkers if they know what's going on. I have also made a bug report in the PYDT forums, in case its something pertaining to the software. If it's a game bug...I really don't think there's anything we can do. 

In any event, my preferred course of action is to leave it be for a few days and see it I get a reply on my bug report/a lurker knows what's going on/if the game itself works out the kink and stops awarding me science. If none of these occur, I'll invite a neutral third party like Sullla to come in and give a ruling on the best way to move forward. I am documenting how much 'free' science I'm getting from it, so we'll have that on record if we want to redress it in some way. I'm thinking something to the effect of wasting the corresponding amount of science in a worthless tech like military tactics, or going over halfway on a tech in the future to the point where it's equal to the amount of science earned and then hit the Eureka. 

Curiously, I am correctly not getting GS points for the pillaged campus - yet it still says I'm getting the science.... For all I know the display could be bugged and I am not receiving the science, but without techs showing science numbers, there is no way to confirm for sure   

At any rate, I'll keep an eye on it and let you know if anything changes. In the meantime, best of luck in our current conflict!  

[oledavy]

Trying to resolve this campus bug problem in a manner that leaves everyone happy. For now, I think the best solution is recording my unearned science gained from it, then potentially wasting it on a tech through a properly timed Eureka later on in the game. In the end, if will probably amount to 40-60 science. Of course, this is hardly perfect, but I don't think there's really a perfect solution to this predicament.

[Zero_1627]

Trying to resolve this campus bug problem in a manner that leaves everyone happy. For now, I think the best solution is recording my unearned science gained from it, then potentially wasting it on a tech through a properly timed Eureka later on in the game. In the end, if will probably amount to 40-60 science. Of course, this is hardly perfect, but I don't think there's really a perfect solution to this predicament.

Seems like a sensible solution to most troublesome bug - purposefully wasting an appropriate amount of science... Not ideal, but I can't come with anything better.

Also, I agree with going public - I don't think it's all that troublesome (everyone You met knows You're at war and knows Your military rating changes...), and would mean problem (and solution) is known to all and decided in discussion.

[Ichabod]

I imagine that pillaged districts don't lose the adjacency bonus, nor City State related bonuses (I also doubt a pillaged Commercial Hub makes you lose the extra TR). I guess that means losing only the GPP bonus for pillaged base districts (internet tells me districts with buildings on it can be pillaged multiple times, I'm guessing that each pillage negates the effect of the higher building). I feel this is a game mechanic, rather than a bug, and that you can't be responsible for a flawed assumption made by an opponent (if pillaging your district was such a big strategic decision for Singaboy, he ought to have informed himself about the effects of it).

My lurker opinon is that you should play on as is, with no compensation given (why would there be a compensation if you haven't done anything wrong?). Just because you also didn't know about what a pillaged district resulted in, it doesn't mean it's a bug. Perhaps it's a bad game mechanic, what with all the talk about making districts important points of conflict, but it doesn't seem to be a bug.

And by the way, if I'm not mistaken, districts are very costly to repair (they require city production turns, I think), and i'm guessing you can't build a library while it's pillaged. So, you already suffered a hit from the pillaging, just not all that was expected.

Finally, with how Civ 6 UI works, I wouldn't be surprised if you are actually not gaining the bpt shown in it.

[Zero_1627]

There's something in what Ichabod says, thinking of it... Especially as it won't be the last district pillaged in MP (or in PBEM2 specifically, come to think of it). Compensating for such bug (if it's a bug, as Ichabod pointsed out) would become more and more troublesome.

[oledavy]

I imagine that pillaged districts don't lose the adjacency bonus, nor City State related bonuses (I also doubt a pillaged Commercial Hub makes you lose the extra TR). I guess that means losing only the GPP bonus for pillaged base districts (internet tells me districts with buildings on it can be pillaged multiple times, I'm guessing that each pillage negates the effect of the higher building). I feel this is a game mechanic, rather than a bug, and that you can't be responsible for a flawed assumption made by an opponent (if pillaging your district was such a big strategic decision for Singaboy, he ought to have informed himself about the effects of it).

My lurker opinon is that you should play on as is, with no compensation given (why would there be a compensation if you haven't done anything wrong?). Just because you also didn't know about what a pillaged district resulted in, it doesn't mean it's a bug. Perhaps it's a bad game mechanic, what with all the talk about making districts important points of conflict, but it doesn't seem to be a bug.

And by the way, if I'm not mistaken, districts are very costly to repair (they require city production turns, I think), and i'm guessing you can't build a library while it's pillaged. So, you already suffered a hit from the pillaging, just not all that was expected.

Finally, with how Civ 6 UI works, I wouldn't be surprised if you are actually not gaining the bpt shown in it.

This is an excellent point. It seems illogical to me, but I can't say I would be too surprised if it was indeed a design decision. The game definitely realizes the campus is pillaged though, as the strength of Hamilton went down from 31 to 29. Maybe the campus does just produce GPP and the adjacency science is not dependent on if the campus is currently alive or not. 

I sent this to Singaboy: 

It's been suggested to me in my lurker thread that the campus still producing science is not a bug, but intentional, although that makes little sense to me and I can't confirm it at present. The logic being that pillaging a campus does not stop collection of its adjacency bonus or associated CS benefits, but rather just the GPP. I can also confirm that the game recognizes that the district has been pillaged, as the strength of Hamilton went down. 

In any event, I'm going to continue leaving the matter open to public comment and tracking the science. Just wanted to give you an update. Have you noticed in your SP games that pillaging left adjacency bonuses untouched? 

[Molach]

100 % in agreement with Ichabod here. Though I am exclusively following this thread and biased. Doesnt mean Im not right though

Pillage means no buildings, no gpp and a crapton of production to build up again. But the wise heads living there would still be awed by the holy mountains around there. This might be intended. And its not like you have been breaking or bending a rule or abusing known bug.

[Commodore]

Sucks for Singaboy, though. Is this kind of counter-intuitive crap being documented by the community?

Fun as this is to watch, my late-adopter choices feel pretty dagum solid.