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Are you, in fact, a pregnant lady who lives in the apartment next door to Superdeath's parents? - Commodore |
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Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves
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scooter has already told CFC just about everything suggested in this thread: that their proposed city is unacceptable to us, that we can gift them stone faster than they can connect it with an aggressive plant, and so on. I'm not convinced that sending more messages than we already have will accomplish anything right now.
I'm also amused at how many people here want to play hardball with seemingly every other team we meet. As strong as we are, it's not good policy to antagonize other teams. The only thing that we've agreed to give CFC thus far are an excess spice and an excess stone in return for 50 extra turns of peace. That remains an outstanding deal for our team.
February 18th, 2013, 09:44
(This post was last modified: February 18th, 2013, 09:49 by scooter.)
We could tell them that of course, but it would pretty easy for them to control their inner ring. I think asking them to stretch the NAP til T200 is a pretty reasonable counter-request now.
I see the comments saying "CFC is not our friend," but to that I ask... who is? We're top dog by a mile and it's about to get worse. You don't get friends when you're in our position. Instead, you buy off potential enemies and continue the snowball. At T175 or T200 we may likely be miles ahead of these guys. edit: crosspost with Sullla. but yes, I'm not sure you guys are reading these chats I post. 
(February 18th, 2013, 09:44)scooter Wrote: We could tell them that of course, but it would pretty easy for them to control their inner ring. I think asking them to stretch the NAP til T200 is a pretty reasonable counter-request now. If they're desperate for the stone, then timing matters. Of course they can control the inner ring, given time. But say they settle the city this turn, and magically transport four workers to the stone and improves it on T105. Then, on T107 they lose the stone to Starfall's culture. Sure, they can rush in a missionary and gain control back on, say, T113, but then they have lost six turns in the wonder race.
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
What I think of CFC's behaviour
I doubt they are acting out of being antagonistic to us, specifically. I really doubt they as a team are out to get us (despite Sommerswerd's pre-game antics). Instead, I think we should remember that one should never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. And another remark, that the will to be stupid is a very powerful force. I wrote earlier that I think CFC is a poorly organised team lacking in strategic vision on how they wanted their game to develop. We had a plan: get a strong cottage economy going ASAP, expand rapidly, get the MoM. We did that, and also picked up some nice extras as they were overlooked by other teams (Hinduism, Stonehenge). CivPlayers also had a plan, a beeline for Oracle and CoL, which they executed. CivFr had a plan, get some quick expansion going that claimed lots of good land, and then turn on vertical growth via ball courts. Apolyton had a plan, to get some very quick academies going, and then probably something involving MC if I read their whips correctly. But what plan did CFC have? They squandered the advantage of fast workers by not settling towards the forests, and by delaying BW. They didn't care about religion, since otherwise they'd have easily beaten us to Polytheism (or CivPlayers to Meditation). They didn't care about a specialist economy, since otherwise they'd have gone for Writing a lot earlier, and most especially pushed for the stone location a lot earlier. They knew about it on T25 or so - much earlier than we did. I think CFC now collectively refuses to realise that the situation they're in is entirely of their own doing - that they've made poor choices and thus been out-teched, out-expanded, and out-produced. I believe some of the teams go for blaming the messenger (that is, us, for being the one to do most of the above). Some of the team try to push for a different economy (ie, specialists and Representation using the Pyramids) since their first try with a cottage economy doesn't keep up, not because it's a good idea for them but because they have no idea on how to keep up. Some probably try to keep running this as Ciplomacy. And then I guess there are a few players there interested in playing a good game of Civ 4. Shoot the Moon's remark about the stone is worthwhile because it's a simple statement how the game will treat this mechanically: they may improve the stone, but they won't be able to keep the stone during the very turns they want to chop out the pyramids. The only way they can have a source of stone during the major part of the coming ten to fifteen turns is on our sufferance. I'm willing to provide them stone, if they ask nicely, and for a long solid NAP treaty. We don't even need to rub it in that it is on our sufferance. But they can't have it both ways, expecting us to cave in to every demand of theirs while we play nice with them.
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
+1 to kjn's post.
If I can catch him, I may mention the stone border pop issue with Caledorn. Hopefully that is the thing that puts this over the top. I'm also convinced we should try to convince them to extend this deal to T200. Any other opinions on that? If they say no, I think T175 is sufficient, but a little extra time would be nice. (February 18th, 2013, 10:37)scooter Wrote: +1 to kjn's post. Yeah, not sure if your "read the chat logs" comment was directed at my comment or not, but explaining the border pop situation was really what I was calling for and those weren't in the chat logs (which I did read  ).
scooter, we can get Great Wall at eot 105 in Mansa's Muse even if we trade them our stone on T105 (the turn after finishing Hanging Gardens). Since the current turn is T103, that's the turn after next, *MUCH* faster than they could connect stone themselves.
If you have a chance, please tell CFC that we'll trade them stone on T105 in exchange for a long NAP and them not settling that city. (February 18th, 2013, 10:37)scooter Wrote: +1 to kjn's post. Let's ask for T200 on the NAP. This gives us more of what we want and allows for this ridiculous, engineered diplomatic crisis to have some benefit for us as well. Scooter, continue to reinforce kjn's point that if they have a specific target date in the very near future by which they must have stone, they need to play ball with us.
February 18th, 2013, 11:33
(This post was last modified: February 18th, 2013, 11:34 by scooter.)
Great. I believe Caledorn is asleep (yes he's in Norway but his schedule is really unusual), but I will definitely relay that to him ASAP. I imagine & hope that will be the end of the issue.
edit: and I think I'll aim to up the NAP to T200 rather than 175. |
