Serdoa's SPOILER-Thread: I am legend?

[Serdoa]

Game settings and their impact

Big part of every civ-game as we all know is choosing your leader and civilization. I know I've pondered about this decision in past games sometimes for days - and still I don't think I remember even one game which I was happy with my decision in the end. Something always seems better in hindsight, someone always picked smarter than me and so on. Much of this though comes obviously from having information that is not available at the start or is only true in relation to what others have picked, something one does not know till the end of the snake-pick - when it is obviously too late.

So, lets again try to make the best pick with the information we have. Which is... not much. Lets see:

Map-Size: Big enough that everyone can settle 2nd ring cities - that would indicate to me 25 uncontested cities. Something like:

y = second ring cities
x = first ring cities
C = capital

y y y y y
y x x x y
y x C x y
y x x x y
y y y y y

That is rather big actually thinking about it. Definitely plays to the strengths of Noble and Gaspar. It also means early game aggression is basically out of the window, even if you wanted to, the travel-time alone would make your army obsolete. Even at normal speed, I don't think there is really any expectation of aggression before we reach at least Knights. This speaks for a builder approach to the game then. Of course, it also depends a little bit on how pindicator does interpret this. Does he measure it with 3x3 squares for each city, meaning the third ring starts 9 tiles from the capital? Or does he measure it with the workable area of a city, 5x5? That would increase the distance for third ring to 15 tiles. 

For now, I assume something in between, lets say 24 tiles between players. Which also equates to 12 tiles in each direction per player or a grid of 25x25 tiles per player. So 625 tiles per player. Total map size of at least 3750 tiles. That's actually just Standard size dimensions, though it assumes basically no water except for some lakes. 

I probably have to check the maintenance calculation to see what all that means in the end, number of cities did play a role, so having the potential to have more of them uncontested also means that maintenance, even though the calculation for maintenance is assuming cylindrical standard map size on Monarch, might play a bigger role than I initially expected. 

Lets look at the available traits in the next post, mostly to remind me about them and see the changes from the mod.

[Serdoa]

I will look at each trait, giving my initial rating about it. Consider you warned though, I have certainly not all changes of the mod present, so I might very well overlook important points or synergies.

AGGressive: 
-25% unit maintenance (new)
Free Promotions (Combat 1) for Melee and Gunpowder Units
+100% production for Barracks, Drydock
+100% production for Jail (new)

It obviously became better than before as it only got buffs. 25% reduced unit maintenance does give it a slight economic nudge, taking it away from a solely militaristic trait which in rather pacifistic games might not make any difference. Well, it does, as in you playing with one less trait than everyone else. 

That said, it has not lost it's core identity as a trait for players mostly interested in warfare. Unfortunately it was before and still is even limited in that. Bigger maps don't lend itself towards early aggression - and this map seems to be one of those - and that's were a C1 promotion and cheap Barracks come in most handy. After that it takes till Rifles or later till it becomes important again, at least as a tool for aggression as fast units like HA and Knights rule and those can be 2 promo-units with just Barracks and Stable / Vassalage. 

I could see myself taking it, just because I believe most remember me as a rather aggressive player so that might fuel into that expectation. The question is just, is it worth it? Maybe with Zulu and building Ikhandas everywhere. Not sold on that tbh.

CHArismatic:
+1 happy / city
-25% xp for unit promotions
+100% production of Monument, Colosseum (new)
+1 happy from Monument, Broadcast Tower

Did CHA need a boost? I'm not so sure but it got it. Monuments are half CRE, now getting them for half price makes it... 3/4 CRE? Together with the happy-bonus it basically seems as good or actually better, if you can wait twice the turns till borders pop. 

Additionally there is the xp boost. If I do remember correctly, this is good early game (Stable + Vassalage for 2 promo mounted units, no need for Barracks) but especially helpful later on when you can stack EXP-bonus from different sources. That might come in handy, as I expect late game warfare. 

Overall I do think this trait is not bad and the settings of this game as well as my opponents seem to play into its strengths.

CREative:
+2 culture / city
+50% production for Library (50% less than original)
+100% production of Theatre
No production bonus for Colosseum (100% less than original)

Slightly nerfed. I don't think the production bonus for Colosseums was especially important. Library production on the other hand does matter. This changes the amount of chops necessary from more or less 2 to 3 pre-Mathematics. I guess that means CRE has a harder time being culturally aggressive, while maintaining its core of providing an easy way to get to your 2nd ring in all cities.

I don't think CRE is particularly well suited for longer games on bigger maps. At the start we should not have to worry about popping borders that much, at least not to secure land, and later on it is easy enough to pop borders anyhow. (Wait for me having a CRE-neighbor and getting pissed by their culture invading "my" territory)

EXPansive:
+2 health / city
+100% production of Granary, Harbor
+100% production of Aqueduct (new)
No production bonus for Worker (25% less than original)

Well Expansive was nerfed. I'm sure it had it coming and I know that the worker production buff has been seen by many as not that impactful (as it doesn't work on food anyways) but still, it does make it weaker. A faster granary is still important. The aqueduct buff is whatever. Depending on the map you won't think about that before much later, when its cost is not that important. Anyhow, I think it is still strong and I also think I fall in the trap many new players fall into: Underestimating the importance of Granaries. Also, if I believe this to become a longer game, the health bonus might be relevant when we grow cities beyond size 10 or more.

Tentatively interested in it, depending on what is available to pair it with when the time comes to pick. 

FINancial:
+1 commerce on land plots with 3+ commerce
+1 commerce on water plots with 2+ commerce
No longer provides +1 commerce on any tile with 2+ commerce
+100% production of Bank (new)

Financial has been tried to balance in several mods, always running into the same issue: Either it has no impact anymore or the change is making a negligible difference at best. I'd assume this is closer to the latter. Cottages won't directly get the buff if they are on a tile next to a river, but it just takes 10 turns for them to mature, so it really boils down to a 10 commerce difference. If you plant them early enough this trait will still provide so much more commerce over a whole game that no other trait comes close. You just have to live long enough to see it happen... while having a cross painted on your back... in flashing red colors. 

Good trait but boring, and I'm not sure I want to make myself more of a target than I probably am already.

IMPerialistic:
+100% Great General Points
+50% production of Settler
+100% production of Stable (new)

A buff for Imperialistic is unexpected. I mean I can see how just a production-buff for Settlers is an early game advantage with no impact late, which makes it kinda weak. But a production bonus for Stables does not change that issue imo. It makes it easier to grab land and defend it with promoted HA / Knights though. But you still might have a hard time leveraging that land in the late game against a FIN-civ. However, I can see playing CHA/IMP Mongolia, using stables to get cheap 2 promo-HAs and run someone over, while having the capacity to also settle the land before others grab it for free. Just most likely not on this map, as even with HA, 24 tiles from capital to capital is a little bit much. 

Anyhow, I liked IMP in the past, getting more added to it makes me just that more likely to pick it. 

INDustrious:
+50% production of wonders
+100% production of Forge

No changes here, kinda surprising to me. IND was never the strongest trait, just well liked by players that want to build wonders. But after the first player that picks it, it becomes kinda meh, as all players that have IND cannibalize each other, leaving it much weaker. It has been buffed indirectly though by making Metal Casting cheaper, which in turn helps getting Forges online sooner. And with IND it at least takes only 240 hammers of production after the Forge has been built to amortize its cost.

Potential pick candidate, depending on my position in the pick order and what others have picked. 

ORGanized:
-50% civic upkeep
+100% production of Lighthouse, Factory, Courthouse

Another one without change, another surprise to me. ORG is not bad, especially at higher difficulties, but I could see it getting a buff to be more feasible even on lower difficulty settings or maps with few water bodies.  Then again, I have not yet looked at the maintenance calculations so maybe I underestimate it and Monarch is already high enough a setting to make it worthwhile. What is not enough to make it worthwhile are the UB that are buffed by it. None of them seem particularly important or strong. 

Not my first pick, but could end up with it anyway, depending on what insights my findings regarding maintenance provide. 

PHIlosophical:
+150% GPP (+50% more than original)
+100% production of University

The issue with PHI is that GPP production does not scale linearly, making it harder and harder the longer a game goes on. This buff does set that time-frame further back while making it easier to generate your first ones, and maybe that already is enough to make it so much better. Not sold on that though. Then again, I've forgotten basically everything in regards to Great People, tech-popping for beelines and all that good stuff, so maybe that change actually allows a skilled player to get every single "first to"-bonus.

The production bonus is nice, especially as you want this building in cities that have high research output, often going hand in hand with low production.

Not first pick, maybe not even second, but I could be persuaded. If this is taken one has to have a clear game-plan what to do with it!

PROtective:
+75% domestic trade route yield (new)
Free promotion (City Garrison I, Drill I) for archery and gunpowder units
+100% production of Walls and Castle

Now, that's a buff I can understand. While Protective always was good in deterring any aggression coming your way at the early game it also was weak for anything but that. In an MP-environment trade often is a hassle - or simply doesn't happen at all. Increasing your domestic trade route yield should alleviate this problem quite nicely. I would have to look into the calculation of trade route yield to gather if that buff is enough to make it undesirable to even have trade routes with others. Anyhow, while it does clearly help to make the trait economically more viable, it also begs the question: If I want an economy boost, why take Protective?

Not interested. May change if the trade route yield increase is actually meaningful enough. 

SPIritual:
No Anarchy
+100% production of Temple

Other traits that I would consider strong but need an experienced player have been changed but this one - that imo has one of the highest skill-ceilings to actually use it well - has stayed as is? I didn't expect that. Anyhow, what is there to say about Spiritual? It is a strong enough trait but only if you actually plan your game accordingly and use it to gain advantages. Which in itself is pretty hard to do while juggling all the other things that need to be taken care of. It is by far easier to change civics like 3-4 times a game, do that within a golden age and simply never actually need SPI. Yes, there are advantages to be had with SPI and it allows you to react quicker to certain events (War? Lets switch to Nationhood and draft!) but I think using a different trait and simply being 5-10 turns faster to reach certain milestones is worth more. 

Not interested. 

[Charriu]

Thanks a lot for the great feedback.

To add a few notes
- Another indirect buff for IND is that wonders only get 50% production bonus from resources
- The PRO trade bonus is only for domestic trade routes. This bonus guarantees that all your trade routes are +2c instead of +1c if they are at least connected to the capital.

[Charriu]

The thing about SPI is that it's always indirectly buffed by any changes to civics

[Charriu]

Sorry for spamming, but regarding traits of which you were surprised of (IND, ORG, IMP, SPI):
What would you say needs to change? Do they need a big or a small buff/nerf?

[Serdoa]

Hey Charriu, thanks for taking the time to read my thread and consider my thoughts on the changes. I'd like to preface everything following with the fact that I have just played one (half) game against AI with the mod so my remarks might very well be the ramblings of an old man that can't keep up with the youth anymore.

The thing about SPI is that it's always indirectly buffed by any changes to civics

You are right and I have not considered those changes at all. Lets look at them:

Serfdom:
+50% worker improvement building speed
+1 commerce on farms (new)
+1 hammers on windmill, watermill (new)

No one was switching into Serfdom just for the worker speed I believe. When you reach Feudalism, you have already built a fair share of cities, you have (hopefully) improved them to the point of only needing to add another improvement from time to time when a city grows. Basically it came to late for what it provided because at the time Feudalism comes along you do have enough workers for whatever you need to do - or you have an issue that Serfdom won't help fix.

The change is meant to provide some more incentive to switch into it. And Windmills and Watermills can use the help, being not the most popular improvement. The question though is: Are these improvements good enough without the Serfdom-bonus as well? As nothing has changed about them, I'd say no. Else they would have been built much more often in the past. That means you have to stick with Serfdom, which feeds into the point of SPI not being worthwhile as you switch into your civic and stay there.

So, what about the other change? Is +1 commerce on farms changing my opinion? Slightly, yes. At some point you don't need or want to use Slavery anymore and usually what happens is a switch to Caste System, often together with a GA which in turn is used to produce 1, 2 or more Great Persons. The next logical step is to move on to Emancipation, but that is often a pipe dream at the end of your GA, with you having to choose between staying in Caste or switching back to Slavery, both being not really the greatest assets at that time. Before Serfdom also was not really worthwhile to switch into. Now at least it is an economic option, a choice besides Slavery, which often was used as a safeguard against attacks. But, what about SPI in that context? Well, SPI makes it easier to switch into Serfdom at the end of the GA without having to fear that one can't react to an attack. It therefore provides a slight economic advantage. But only slight, because you can always go into Serfdom, SPI just makes it a little bit safer, what, depending on game-state, might be completely irrelevant.

Final verdict: Serfdom-change itself is good and it might be able to compete with Emancipation now (I'm not sure about that), but it actually does little to make SPI better.

Emancipation:
+100% growth for cottage, hamlet, village
+10% hammers in all cities (new)
No longer makes other civilizations unhappy that do not have Emancipation

I promise this one will be shorter. Emancipation gained +10% hammers and lost a, at best, not noticeable, at worst unfun, mechanic. Great. It also seems to be, much more than before, the go-to endgame civic in the labor-column. I can't see a player switching between this and serfdom back and forth. And at the point your get it, you also don't need to switch into Caste as you should have enough slots for GPP-creation without it. So, in terms of SPI-usage: I don't see it.

State Property:
No Distance-Maintenance
Corps have no effect
+1 food from workshop, watermill
No longer provides +10% hammers in all cities

I don't think State Property was that strong except maybe in high difficulty, big map games with extreme levels of maintenance. But it was made up for with the hammers. Now it really fits into the Economy column with all those other civics that no one needs. Well, I exaggerate of course, but non of those civics really speak to me. I have played without Corps or in games that never reached them though, so I probably underestimate their effects.

However, as for the question right now "Does it make SPI more worthwhile?" I would again cast my vote to "No, not at all.". You will not switch into Environmentalism if you don't need the health, which should basically be never outside OCCs. You might try to switch into Mercantilism with your first GA, if you have no worthwhile foreign trade routes or just for the GPP in your GPP-cities. If that is not worth it, than you will touch this whole Civic-column only when you do your second switch and go into Free Market. And there you stay till the end. Before you could and would consider State Property - and maybe you still do. But I don't see you switching around... I mean, for what? The only reason is that you had good foreign trade routes and then everyone that had them with you cancels them so you kinda have to switch to Merc. But at that point, you are leading the game and people targeting you, so this column is your least worry really.

Anyhow, I don't see that change do anything to make me more likely to switch around from one to the other.

Environmentalism:
Available at Biology instead Medicine
Does not increase maintenance costs from corps anymore
+6 health in all cities
+2 commerce from windmill, forest preserve
+2 health from public transportation

One trick pony. If you need it, you'll need it either for a considerable amount of time (many health-issues or non-rectifiable) or not really at all (only few health-issues that will be countered in time via new tech). Either way, no reason to jump in and out of it via SPI.

Nationhood:
Can draft 3 units per turn
+25% espionage in all cities
+2 happy from barracks
Low cost instead of no upkeep

The only change in the legal column. And it just increases its cost. Which doesn't change anything at all because you are in this civic because you need to draft, which does cost you money anyhow. Together with the change to drafting, which makes it less worthwhile, this might even provide less incentive to switch between civics than before. Why would you leave free speech to go into this? Only because you need the draft - which you will need less often because it is less potent than before. I'd consider that actually an indirect nerf to SPI.

---

After having gone through all the civic-changes I would go as far as to say SPI is worth even less than it was before. Balancing the civics certainly makes sense, but that means that there is even less incentive to switch between them. The only incentive left is to use things like Slavery, the Draft or Caste Systems specialists while they are needed and being able to switch into anything else as soon as necessary. That is exactly what we had before, just with less incentive in the late game to use it at all with a weaker draft, nerfed state property and several civics that just exist to fill the columns. 

Sorry for spamming, but regarding traits of which you were surprised of (IND, ORG, IMP, SPI):
What would you say needs to change? Do they need a big or a small buff/nerf?

I'm happy to have you posting in my thread and even happier if you spam. I'm not gonna win the postcount-war against Noble and Gaspar, but not getting last would be nice

As for the traits:

IND: I could see a general production bonus, albeit a small one. Something that might not really come into play much in early game as hammer counts are too low and rounding doesn't work out but can be a considerable boost in late game or when chopping greater amounts at once (for example to finish a wonder). Probably would have to be checked if it is too strong with Slavery tough, maybe there is a way to not have it work on those production-values?

As a smaller buff, providing a production boost to another building (Factory?) could work as well, be easier to implement and would stay more within the theme of the mod. That would need to take into account that ORG has that bonus currently though. 

In general I think the wonder-bonus just doesn't work well in a MP-game. You want to concentrate on key-wonders for your strategy, not just anything. But that alone makes the bonus weaker. Now, others are gunning for those wonders as well and - different to an AI - they do take into account that your are IND and try to get them before you, sometimes to their own detriment. It just... it's basically playing poker with open cards while all others have there cards covered. 

ORG: I saw I even misremembered (and didn't read what I typed...). Only civic upkeep costs are reduced, not the actual maintenance. That makes it even worse. Maybe actually have all maintenance reduced would help, though the issue is imo that it is meant as a choice for higher difficulty games in which these costs can become crippling and you actively have to work to reduce them. Everything that works at these costs, that scale with difficulty, will always lead to the same point: Good to borderline mandatory in high difficulty games, weak to useless in low difficulty games. 

Changes therefore would have to be done to production cost reductions. Maybe the worker cost reduction bonus from EXP would make a good thematic fit. 

IMP: Like I wrote, I think it just has early-game bonuses and Stables don't do much for it. Especially as you often try to avoid building them (Barracks+Vassalage = 5 XP, no stables needed). I could see a production bonus for Harbor (but EXP has that already) or maybe - coming from a different angle - having some promotions for units. Maybe settlers gaining an additional move or gunpowder units gaining Shock (making it easier to run over backwards neighbors while not suddenly making it a war-powerhorse in late game). I really believe it is more of a flavor-change that is necessary with the possibility of leveraging that in an advantage IF you play your cards right. 

SPI: Well, I wrote enough about my thoughts on it I believe. As for actually making it stronger I could see buffs to the religious game as a possibility. I'm not very good at that (read: I'm even worse at that than all the other parts of the game), so I'd rather not go into details, but thematically it seems a nice fit.

[Serdoa]

Two things:

1) I really should put those replies in several posts instead of all in one. Would help with the postcount-war.
2) Please, if you read these, leave a comment. English is not my mother tongue so it is quite a bit of work to write these. Also I love to discuss my opinions. I'm also not as certain about all of them as it might sound 

[Charriu]

2) Please, if you read these, leave a comment. English is not my mother tongue so it is quite a bit of work to write these. Also I love to discuss my opinions. I'm also not as certain about all of them as it might sound 

You are not alone there.

[Charriu]

Let's push your post count some more:

Nationhood:
Can draft 3 units per turn
+25% espionage in all cities
+2 happy from barracks
Low cost instead of no upkeep

The only change in the legal column. And it just increases its cost. Which doesn't change anything at all because you are in this civic because you need to draft, which does cost you money anyhow. Together with the change to drafting, which makes it less worthwhile, this might even provide less incentive to switch between civics than before. Why would you leave free speech to go into this? Only because you need the draft - which you will need less often because it is less potent than before. I'd consider that actually an indirect nerf to SPI.

This is a very recent change and I'm not sure it will stay. One problem with Nationhood of course is that the whole espionage mechanic is so bad, but I don't want to dive into that topic right now. I could see myself turning this back to "No Upkeep" in the future.

[Charriu]

IND: I could see a general production bonus, albeit a small one. Something that might not really come into play much in early game as hammer counts are too low and rounding doesn't work out but can be a considerable boost in late game or when chopping greater amounts at once (for example to finish a wonder). Probably would have to be checked if it is too strong with Slavery tough, maybe there is a way to not have it work on those production-values?

As a smaller buff, providing a production boost to another building (Factory?) could work as well, be easier to implement and would stay more within the theme of the mod. That would need to take into account that ORG has that bonus currently though. 

In general I think the wonder-bonus just doesn't work well in a MP-game. You want to concentrate on key-wonders for your strategy, not just anything. But that alone makes the bonus weaker. Now, others are gunning for those wonders as well and - different to an AI - they do take into account that your are IND and try to get them before you, sometimes to their own detriment. It just... it's basically playing poker with open cards while all others have there cards covered.

I agree that IND might need something else aside from the wonders. You either take this trait if you are the only IND player or if you are Japan or Mali. I thought about giving them Factory or some of the Plant buildings, but thought that it's not powerful enough or not interesting enough.