[59] Miguelito and Rusten move stacks to berimbau rythms

[Miguelito]

Looks like we're married to Justin  at this point .

I know, when I saw it roll I laughed out loud.

For perspective,  he's been our pick in 3 of the last 3 games where either of us participated. And honestly I fear that he's the favourite here, again. Maybe I'm undervaluing late game FIN though?

Babylon has a 5% granary effect on its UB, which in itself is awesome of course, but it's still a colosseum (which is even nerfed here because of the no WW setting). Agri start tech is a lot less valuable in CtH. Going to wait for the start screenie of course and try to weigh likely alternatives,  but my lean right now is heavily towards sending back.

[Rusten]

Definitely pick one of the leaders, that's a good roll. Will wait for the start to decide which.

Babylon looks terrible. I never liked the Khmer baray that much and this is worse, at least if it works like I think it does. I'll need to check it first hand because anything related to food is potentially broken.

[Miguelito]

As I understand it, it makes you need 1 less food to grow, 2 less from size 11 on. You seem to be right that that's worse than the Baray bonus in most cases, which I agree is underwhelming. Mind you also get the +2 health from the old garden that nobody ever needed (although the game is expected to last into the industrial age), and the +1 happy from colosseum. I'd guess with CHM it could be worth building.

[Rusten]

On the whole I prefer Justinian as a leader, but considering the game settings and the fact that we've played him so much recently I am leaning Pacal. But you have the final say either way, and as already mentioned I want to see the start first too.

Fin is something we both wanted, and while we both think Exp is a little boring and "known" it does go well with it. Gives us an early boost -- few better traits paired with Fin than Exp.

[Miguelito]

You have to appreciate the meme value of picking Justinian though.

Honestly, after 2 games in a row, I'm still excited to play around with Spi. Did you notice it got buffed, with serfdom available at monarchy now? Also landing a religion and shrine on this map would be oh so joyful... Fin otoh has received 2 nerfs, losing the bank bonus, and then the weird lighthouse thing. Makes me think what a good Fin start would look like? Previously I'd have assumed something snaky on the coast, but with no Fin coast for some 50-70 turns you'd rather just have a green valley I suppose? With game settings you probably mean emperor difficulty?
Anyways, let's see the start, sure.


I suppose we can't send back Babylon and hold the two leaders meanwhile, right ?

On that note, I'm not sure if this wording:

You may reject or accept any of these choices. You will have a max of 2 more choices of civ and a max of 4 more leaders.

will be clear to everybody. My understanding is that you can send back leaders and/or civs up to two times. In particular the number 4 there may be confusing to some (although it's technically correct of course).

[Rusten]

For game settings I was more referring to that it's a huge map with many players, which means having a late game trait that scales with size is very helpful, but it's not a must.
I forgot about the lighthouse change, that's a little annoying for seafood early game. My main idea for a Fin start was a coastal fish for instance.
I'm sold on serfdom farms, I love those.

Meme value of Justinian is also unquantifiable, true.

[Rusten]

I guess this is still relevant then:

[Lewwyn]

Here is the starting screenshot. Let me know when you've decided whether to lock in either the civ or leader or what you'd like to reroll. Confirm in the next two days please. I will be rerolling for everyone that rejects either civ or leaders or both once I have all confirmations for this round of selections.

Your start:

[Miguelito]

Thanks Lewwyn, jungled start  as promised, I see.

(Just noticed that the settler is NOT on the sugar,  but I think it makes a lot of sense to move him there. The PH has the same food resources, but worker/WB movement is more difficult. I also think that 3f capital tile > 2h, and settling on jungle makes that tile useful. The  FPH may have something in the fog, but is off coast, loses a forest, and again I like the 3f tile). Lewwyn, will the scout be on the sugar, or stacked with the settler?



Lots of rivers for FIN,  and coming from PB54, boy are we well fed. Is lots of food good or bad for EXP? Hm, Pottery straight after BW/Agri/Fishing? (before BW doesn't make sense... or...?)
My heart is still with Justinian though. He certainly can whip out those settlers here. The question is if we do that and expand far and wide, will we still have the commerce to come out on top with a Judaism or CoL push? If yes we'll just have a shrine instead of FIN cottages. Maybe don't expand full steam, and invest the hammers saved on expansion into building/working some cottages? I would expect that there is still land up for grabs after Monotheism.

If the whole map is that lush, are we looking more at cottage cheese than serfdom farms? Mills are still good probably.
Hm, I'm near convinced that Pacal is the rational decision here, but don't want to give up the 


Babylon's agri/wheel are well matched (well they'd be almost always?), in particular for EXP/FIN's early Pottery. I'd consider it wih Pacal, although still not too hot on it. We expect some more space towards neighbours, reducing the bowmen's impact (Cornflakes executed a nice bowman choke in PB49, but that map was super tight, and it still cost him expansion wise). They are good for barbs though I suppose?

[Lewwyn]

Lewwyn, will the scout be on the sugar, or stacked with the settler?

I'm not 100% sure yet about the scout, I'm still deciding, but the settler will be on that grassland.