It seems Nau is getting Rusten as dedlurker and Mjmd got Pindi. If thats true maybe tarkeel civac arent the favourites anymore. I guess it would depend on how closely pindi and rusten are following the games but i think both are better players than anyone in this game.
Maybe Roosevelt makes sense then. I feel playing Asoka again though. Also do you agree with my possition out of IMP, i think you wouldnt since you played justinian for PB49 and PB54. I wouldnt feel bad playing justinian if you can help me out not getting into bankrupcy
Rusten joining naufragar while PB59 is still running is good material for some jealousy drama on my side, if he starts spending his time there
The general advice with traits of course is something early + something late, which is what I've picked in all my games so far - so I would not mind trying something different, as your interests seem to be mostly late/late. And you've already had the chance to get used to it with Asoka, although in this field you should not be able to land as many wonders.
No problem in going for Asoka if you feel like it, although I'm really no authority on Spi. Just played it twice, and one of those lost the game around t75 and even got eliminated in the end. But it's a fascinating trait.
I posted some thoughts about Exp and Fin in the PB59 thread:
(September 24th, 2021, 15:47)Miguelito Wrote: vanrober in the PB62 thread asked how I am feeling about Exp/Fin, and that's a good quesiton of course, that I should think about a bit. I don't think it warrants spoilers for that game, I'm just voicing my thoughts with regard to this one, and the general state of the mod:
EXP my reserved feelings are mostly about the whole trait being about just one building reduction, even if it's the most important building. But it is certainly very impactful, and changes a lot how you can approach certain things. I think it has been a pretty good fit for this map and our game - we've settled a lot of cities quite late, and without forests. For late cities I suppose the settlers are less of a problem, and the issue is getting them online fast. A 1pop vs a 2pop whip for every new city (or working a mine for some 7? turns) is obviously a significant difference. Now when there are forests the extra chop may be rather easy to arrange, but of course a saved chop can go into the forge or lighthouse. van (who knows more about other people's games) already noted that we took some time to get rolling, but then from maybe turn 60? on could manage pretty explosive growth, which is probably thanks to all the established granaries. Side note, the health bonus has actually been useful in Bonfim occasionally, which is a city without fresh water nor the option to build a harbour, and which has a few floodplains and reaches size 19. If we ever reach industrialization it might help more significantly.
I don't think it is better than Imp in most cases. Imp helps you earlier, not only the second city, but also the third, which was very important in our PB54 game for example. And it has the GGs on top.
FIN has, on the one hand been great for us, at least as long as we had the Colossus, which enabled us to conquer Donovan while picking up Taj, Lib, the Economics merchant*, and overall got us a tech boost that we're still nurturing ourselves on now that our economy has fallen behind. Regarding the bad economy, of course Fin is what is keeping us afloat more or less. But without having run numbers, I'm very much sure that Org would be a lot better for us in our current situation, taking into account the building discounts, and moreso considering that we might reach factories yet. The sea commerce nerf with the lighthouse did cost us significantly in the early game, after some time of course it doesn't matter as much anymore. Which is what Charriu intended.
I'll add that fishing villages are enabled much rather by Fin than Org. The cheap lighthouse of course helps, but eg the Exp granary helps more. but Fin really makes them profitable, while without it working coast or even ocean is mostly to build up whipping reserve. Of course in current CtH Darius is very synergistic.
But anyways, pretty surely Org over Fin, especially with Emperor.
Exp over Imp longterm for PB59 maybe, but that draws on a lot of peculiarities of that map. In general I expect Imp to be more useful when it counts the most.
Is Ind late? I don't know? You could argue it's early because it makes a Stonehenge play more viable. Would forges still come during expansion phase? That depends on the map I suppose. Cheap forges are very good as long as you're adding new cities where to build them. The national wonder bonus also helps you well into the game, but is not that significant. Ironically with industrialization the Industrial trait becomes rather insignificant, but this game will not last as long anyways. The wonder bonus has the most impact early, while later wonder races often become more about tech than hammers. So I'd rate it as early-midgame or pure midgame, depending on where you set your priorities.
Ind is particularly strong for wonders that get no resource bonus, which are AP, Stonehenge (typically), Oracle (also typically), what else? And Colossus of course because of the forge.
My approach would be to focus on just one or two major wonders early, and get forges up somewhere around t80. Not necessarily through Oracle (if you take MC through Oracle it's likely you can't really spare the hammers yet, because you have your hands full with expansion, and then you sit on the tech for 20 turns without using it. Pick up epics early, then if you're in good shape race for Taj or something like that, although Taj can well be 1 turned without Ind as well so it's really about the tech.
Pro is explicitly designed as the early game economic trait, meant to resolve or assuage the issue that you mentioned, of running out of gold while expanding - different from other early traits like Imp/Exp/Cre, which mostly save you hammers and get the cities online faster. I never felt like it was too impressive, but a lot of people have picked it and done well. On maps with few players the domestic routes often remain important well into the later game, but you know that because you just won a game with it.
(September 24th, 2021, 16:16)Miguelito Wrote: Pro is explicitly designed as the early game economic trait, meant to resolve or assuage the issue that you mentioned, of running out of gold while expanding - different from other early traits like Imp/Exp/Cre, which mostly save you hammers and get the cities online faster. I never felt like it was too impressive, but a lot of people have picked it and done well. On maps with few players the domestic routes often remain important well into the later game, but you know that because you just won a game with it.
Interesting. PRO felt best in the lategame to me, with Merc and GLH/Circumnav/Castles. Specifically Merc felt like the big enabler. But it was also useful early. I'm not sure how much the data was skewed by the map being perfect for PRO in general, but I agree it wasn't too impressive early on, other actual hammer-saving traits would have been way better. Maybe you call it a midgame trait and split the difference?
My thinking right now is about Julius (ORG/IMP) I am feeling like trying IMP not bankrupcing, it will be major for me to see that working. Or Roosevelt, Amicalola played him 2 times and both games were really nice to lurk, i want to feel the power of early forges, probably followed by colossus.
Part of my heart is breaking about not trying again Asoka, but i feel she is not as strong as this other 2 guys. But maybe she is funnier... Not sure.
BTW, really nice to read your thoughts Mig, i enjoyed them.
Also thanks Amicalola for showing yourself a bit on here. Is always nice :P
Ha.
First thing to do is worldbuilder check for how many turns tundra and ice floods plains take to improve (farm/ cottage).
Scout could go to the marble, or N of it? 3h plant is the one option I can think of that could justify a move, but I don't know if it's worth it if we don't find more food.
Wiki says improvements take +25% for tundra and desert, +50% for ice. So it would be 5/6 turns for the cottage, and 7/8 for the farm
I remember spending 12 turns on an ice fortress in 59 (when it didn't matter), so that checks out.
![[Image: PKmFhnX.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/PKmFhnX.jpg)
