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[SPOILERS] Out of retirement and into the fires of war. yuris125, Pitboss 68

Last thought before bed: maybe we should take Egypt and try to leverage War Chariots' mobility on defence, while looking for an opening for an opportunistic strike. Target pairing would be Lincoln of Egypt, Obelisk seems to have a decent synergy with both Phi and Cha. Although value of easy great prophet is diminished with a low city count, so maybe not as much valuable synergy as I thought

Anyway, thoughts are welcome while I sleep on the pick
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Sleep well. I'll try to sim some in the meanwhile and have some thoughts waiting for you in the morning.
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
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I don't think Pro is very good. If your estimate of 3-4 cities is right, it's +3 gold before Currency and Financial would be better. I don't think the City Garrison and Drill promos salvage it.

I think Agg is almost a necessity. If Agg people make a Barracks and shove Shock Axes at us, there's no good way to trade efficiently without Aggressive axes of our own. The one alternative I can think of is Babylon's Bowman, which doesn't beat an Axe one-for-one, but does trade hammer-efficiently. Once we're out of danger from Shock axes, the next danger is Thoth's Praets, who will almost certainly be Agg, too. Without Shock Axes or Bowmen, we can't beat Praets (until we get catapults, but I imagine by then it'll be too late). So, in my opinion, we need to be Agg or have Bowmen.

In the spoiler is a mock-up of the map. I've marked with red dots where people can settle on a luxury first-ring to let their opponents also settle on a luxury first ring. This seems quite peaceful for an AW game, so I've also marked in orange spots that will invalidate any first-ring luxury plants from the neighbor. I've marked with an X those orange dots that probably won't be considered because they don't have first-ring food or can't share with the cap. (One or two orange dots have first ring fish in the inner sea. These probably deserve Xs as well.) Lastly, I've put a box around the orange dots that completely invalidate any city plants between themselves and the neighbor's capital. shakehead Yeah, I might've went overboard. Anyway, here it is:


Some things to point out in no real order:
-Southeast has the only good expansion that also cuts off a neighbor (Southwest) from settling in their direction completely.
-Northwest's neighbors have no good ways of invalidating his luxury plant. I put a box around one of Northeast's options but that would require slow-building a work boat for the ocean fish.
-Following the above, Northeast has no good way of preventing his neighbors from settling min distance.
-Southwest's neighbors both have excellent spots to settle up on him. The other players are usually only especially vulnerable on one side.
-Everybody's horses have some sort of awkwardness to them, often screwing up the dotmap. Luckily, everybody but Northeast gets there's with the capital's third ring on t50.

Ok. Enough map stuff. Back to pick phase. You mentioned wanting something defensive or economy-oriented. Given that we'll only have 4-5 natural cities, Pro isn't going to give much, 4gpt before Currency and 8gpt after? Fin will help, between the gold, coast, and cottages. I haven't done the math, but Phi with an Academy is probably the best or second best.

It's your game, so I'll happily scheme based on whatever you want. My suggestion is picking Agg/Something or Bowmen (Babylon) with first pick. I think any of Sitting Bull, Lincoln, or Pericles will be available after a first round Babylon pick. There's also the possibility of grabbing Agg or Pro + Imp and second picking a map spot that can push a neighbor back by invalidating plants (the two Southern starts). I don't think any unique units are so important as to pick first now that Praets are gone. Edit: There is some weird possibility of using Greece to Great Artist bomb somebody, I guess.

It's now my bedtime too, and my brain is leaking out my ears. Pick something you'll have fun with. I'll have fun with everything.
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
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Thanks for the analysis!

Egypt idea came to me when I was thinking about the same thing as you, the threat of axes. It is possible to deflect it with regular chariots, but war chariots fare better against an axe stack defended by a single spear, and also are more of a threat if they find a poorly defended city. But it was a late night idea, so not necessarily well thought out smile

Babylon was on my radar, and since you bring it up as well, I'll go ahead and pick it. Think I prefer choosing Babylon to being forced to pick an Agg leader
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So looking at the map, I wonder if we should take a start on the second pick

* Starting with Agri/Wheel, we'd rather not end up in NE start, which would force us to research early Hunting. We will want Hunting for the UU, but I'd rather be flexible with its timing, as I see it as a lower priority tech than Mining, BW, and possibly Fishing
* SW is most vulnerable to being settled upon, as per your analysis

So I'd be much happier if we could ensure NW or SE start (SE looks better for defensive play). At the same time, now that we secured Babylon and don't have to take an Agg leader, and at least 2 other players are all but guaranteed to take Agg, there shouldn't be much competition for a leader we want - think I'd be equally happy with Lincoln or Pericles
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Works for me. Looking at the map again, it looks like hill sites are very rare. NW gets one of the only ones with its fur plant. That's a really strong spot, especially for bowmen. Yeah, either NW or SE seem nice and defensible.

Thumbs up for Lincoln or Pericles. thumbsup
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
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Miguelito taking the start with the first pick, interesting

Fingers crossed Thoth doesn't take NW from us

Worth noting that with both eastern starts taken, we're guaranteed to be next to Rome (and to Commodore if we take NW)
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Looking at the map, and with Thoth taking Kublai, I think I favour Pericles over Lincoln. I like the hill spot next to the furs you mentioned, that's probably what we want for our second city. But to make this into an early game powerhouse, we need to claim the fishes in the 2nd ring

This probably means ceding the ivory to Thoth, but oh well, we can't make a play for both luxuries. But if we do get a chance, we can settle NW of sugar for the third city, and creative will help contain Thoth's border pressure as well. Sucks that that spot is not on the inner sea, so unclear how we will improve the fish - but we can discuss when we get there

Obviously if Miguelito takes one of our preferred leaders, we take the other
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Actually never mind, for some reason I thought NW of the sugar was a hill - it's not. So NW of the ivory / N of the sugar are much better spots to our south - if we get a chance to play for them. Really can't plan that far, even the 2nd city choice depends a fair amount of what our opponents do
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Agreed. Pericles then Lincoln seem fine. Praets are always going to be very scary. The more we can incentivize Thoth to attack Miguelito instead of us, the better, even if it means giving him extra room.
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
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