GvG

[Hawkmoon]

An "after-action" report of Wednesday's GvG extravaganza (feel free to add your own thoughts; this is purely my take on it):

That was FUN!!

So I'd only done any sort of PvP in the RAs, and of course in the Ascalon Academy thingy that you have to go through in Prophecies, and frankly, I sucked at it. I probably still suck at PvP, if left to my own devices! I had been hesitant to do much PvP due to my worrying about my own suckage. What made last night's two GvG matches enjoyable was that we had good communication (thanks to Soul Flayer's TS server - Drasca's server was making the audio so choppy as to be completely unintelligible!), and a good target caller. SwissMercenary was our caller, if I'm not mistaken, and we wouldn't have gotten two wins if it weren't for him.

I made a PvP-only warrior for the festivities, Rent A Bouncer (was SO irked that the name "The Hired Help" was already taken!), using the premade Frenzy Theory template (an Axe/Shock build). I warned my teammates that I was a total n00b, so they were very good at giving me pointers. I'm happy that I wasn't trying to be the primary target caller, because honestly I had a tough time keeping track of the larger outlines of the battle - my screen was constantly filled up with those little dancing numbers and phrases indicating how much damage I was taking and what was causing it. Plus the enemy chars were always in my face (or I was in theirs), so it was hard to see what else was going on! We sucked royally when we would get disorganized and attack separate targets. We rocked when we were coordinated! Kudos again to SwissMerc - he was great at talking us through the whole thing. He'd have Hureg and I (both warriors) attack some target until we'd built up a full adrenaline charge, then when we told him we were at full, he'd call a target, and everyone would unload on that poor sap for a massive damage spike. Often the target would go down before I'd used more than Eviscerate! Rinse and repeat. I apologize if this account seems ridiculously simplistic, and you guys know all this already (!), but I just want to emphasize it because eventually we need to have an RBer in the calling role - and it's SO critical to have a good caller. Did I mention that we won both our matches last night? Admittedly, both our opponents were ranked lower than we were, but given our n00bishness, can I be forgiven for crowing about it a little?

What I know I need to work on is better awareness of the larger aspects of the battle. For instance, I was mostly oblivious of the flag runners - SwissMerc or one of the others would suddenly shout out "get the flag runner!", and I'd be hopelessly pivoting my camera around going, "Who?" And I also need to study the various guild hall maps so I have some clue about where I'm going, and what sorts of assets are available. (e.g., on the Warrior's Isle layout: "There are catapults?! We can FIRE them?!")

I had a blast. I'll definitely be coming back for more! I hope we can get more RBers together for it so we can have an all-Guild team.

[Lurker Wyrm]

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself. That alone makes the trip worth it.

A couple comments on what you said (none of it in any particular order):

What I know I need to work on is better awareness of the larger aspects of the battle.

That comes with experience. First and foremost, you need to be comfortable enough with your build so you can have a general idea as to be able to know which skill is on which hotkey without having to look at the skill bar, being able to recognize the on-screen effects (Meteor Shower has a dead give-away, but so do many other skills if you know what to look for) and other such things that come with experience. Also, using the default interface setup is generally not the most efficient way to do things. I've been experimenting myself lately and have found a setup like this works for me (so far):


It takes getting used to, but it keeps your eyes closer to the middle/upper part of the screen where they should be rather than at the bottom.

I had been hesitant to do much PvP due to my worrying about my own suckage.

That's one of the nice things about GvG -- you've got 7 other people there to back you up. It's also a double-edged sword because if you make a mistake against a good team they will make you pay for it. Big time.

Warrior's Isle layout: "There are catapults?! We can FIRE them?!"

Hehehehe. Wait until we fight in our guild hall. There are a ton of nuances to it that you need to be aware of.

Warrior's, Hunter's and Wizard's are all basically the same with different graphics and slightly different bases. They're considered the easiest to GvG in because of the relatively simple layouts and the relative ease that they lend themselves to various builds.

SwissMercenary was our caller, if I'm not mistaken

Yeah. Generally monks don't call though.

Axe/Shock build

Aside from the tips they already gave you about your adrenaline, there were a couple things about Shock I wanted to say. First off, when you make a war that uses any type of KD, you should use Stoneskin/Stonefist Gauntlets to add to the KD duration. I'm not sure what armor you were using, but that's not as important for now. Also, Shock has 2 purposes: to KD someone so they can't run away during a spike (doesn't always have to be a spike, but that's generally when you want to make sure it's available) and to interrupt someone who's using a long cast time skill, such as a res. You're an adrenal attacker, so don't worry too much if exhaustion takes you down to 5 max energy or so. Well, that's all I can think of on that one for now.

I just want to emphasize it because eventually we need to have an RBer in the calling role - and it's SO critical to have a good caller.

There are 3 very critical roles in GvG: target caller, flag runner, and monk. Yes, there are other roles that are important, but if any of those are off or not all-together there, you're going to run into serious problems. I didn't want to put myself in the target calling position because I'm still very inexperience in GvG and wind up with a bit of tunnel vision -- not a good thing for a caller. It was also unfair for me to try and put you and Hureg in that role as well, but I didn't know who else would/could. If I had known Swiss Merc could call the way he did, I would have taken on the role of monk and let him be the other ranger. Ideally, I was hoping to have Fang be the Charge war and call, but since Hureg doesn't have Prophecies, he can't play a cripshot, which was the only other position available at the time.

Anyways... yeah. Eventually I'd like to be able to have every role filled by an RB member. Soul Flayer and I can take on the monk roles, and I've been trying to push Seijin in the direction of target calling, so if those work out we'll just need someone to learn the ins and outs of flag running (which isn't as hard as the others, but does require all that fun stuff like thinking on your feet).

Ok, that was longer than I'd planned, but I'm not done yet (you should be used to me going on by now).

The first match we pretty much steamrolled through, even with the choppy TS connection. They had 3 henches and one person who was a level 8 necro summoning minions. We probably could have pressed through their defenses sooner and finished in under 10 minutes, but since that was our first effort and the first time we used the build, we did great.

The second match was a lot more even and could have gone either way at first. Once we got co-ordinated though, they didn't stand a chance. The biggest problem on our end was that Hureg over-extended a bit too much. That is a baaaaaaaaaad thing for a warrior to do. You need to stay in healing range of the monks. Moving forward without the rest of the team is the easiest way to get yourself killed and monks are not going to follow you because it's inviting themselves to be attacked by the mid-line casters (dom mesmers in particular can go to town on a monk).

These were the first 2 matches where we really took the offensive and it felt good. In the past we've just been going with whoever was comfortable with what and that wasn't getting us very far. Once people get more skills unlocked and are more comfortable in GvG we can start running more advanced builds (I'd *really* like to try ranger spike someday) but for now we can stay with the prebuilts, making slight modifications as we go.

That's enough on that for now. There are a few final remarks I'd like to make before ending this post so bear with me a bit more.

I would like to make GvG a weekly event if it's something people are willing to be a part of, which from what I've seen in the past few weeks, we are. However...

It's become obvious that Wednesdays are not the ideal time for people to meet, since both Soul Flayer and Seijin have conflicts on these 2 nights. Tuesdays are for nudists (we will finish that eventually) and weekends don't seem to work for most people. That leaves Mondays and Thursdays which are not the best for me. Starting in late September or thereabouts I'll be busy until 9-9:30 those evenings. I'll be able to make it for 10, but won't really be in the best condition, although having 1 off-beat person is better than missing 2 people entirely.

Well anyways, from what I remember everyone saying about their schedules, Monday sounds like the best option, so do we want to make Monday night GvG night?

[WarBlade]

Damn, I wish I'd been there, but the GwDev All Call and report was a lengthy beast yesterday afternoon.

Yeah. Generally monks don't call though.

Wha-???

You had your healer doing target calls!?!?

That's almost as bad as what I wound up doing!

Aside from the tips they already gave you about your adrenaline, there were a couple things about Shock I wanted to say. First off, when you make a war that uses any type of KD, you should use Stoneskin/Stonefist Gauntlets to add to the KD duration.

Yeah I'll add to that too. The Stoneskins and Stonefist Gauntlets I use on Ragnar are enough to slap the opponent down long enough to make good use of a follow-up attack with additional effects that get applied to the target on a "when the target is knocked down" basis.

Eg. Devastating Hammer to score the KD and inflict "weakness" followed by Crushing Blow which inflicts a "deep wound" to a knocked down target.

The exception is Backbreaker (if you're doing your KD's with hammers). That skill has an inherent 4 second KD duration that will not be further enhanced by the Stonefists, but apart from that the Stonies are just good.

[Lurker Wyrm]

You had your healer doing target calls!?!?

We didn't ask him to call targets. The problem was no one else was doing it so he stepped in and started. Hawk and Hureg were both too inexperience to do it correctly and no one else wanted to bother for whatever reason.

Eg. Devastating Hammer to score the KD and inflict "weakness" followed by Crushing Blow which inflicts a "deep wound" to a knocked down target.

The KD duration of Devastating is long enough to score the second hit with Crushing without needing the added duration of Stonefists. They're used so you can keep someone on the ground and unable to do anything to defend themself. Multiple war KD chains are among some of the most powerful weapons in the game.

[Hawkmoon]

Well anyways, from what I remember everyone saying about their schedules, Monday sounds like the best option, so do we want to make Monday night GvG night?

Sooooo...Are we going to GvG Monday night (tomorrow), or go for Wednesday again? Either is fine for me; in fact, Monday will be better in general, because I don't have anything else going on that night.

Thanks for all the info about KD and stuff; I am going to remake my PvP warrior (anyone want to help me come up with a better name?), and I'll make sure to use the Stonefist gauntlets (which I wasn't before...). What's the consensus about using a Shock/Axe build versus a Hammer build for KD? I don't have a Superior Hammer Mastery rune unlocked (and I really don't fancy paying real $$ for the unlock, thank you very much!), so that might be problematical in the short term, but what about for the long run? Hammers swing slower, but is the long-duration KD worth it?

Cheers,
Hawkmoon

[WarBlade]

I like hammers myself.

Pro's:
- Teh uber doober power hit FTBLAMMO!
- Easier to channel attribute points into a Strength/Hammer Mastery combo for big damage (fewer uses for Tactics investments).
- A range of Knockdown options with follow-up options to inflict conditions on the KD'd.
- High pinpoint damage pressure can take down some opponents in seconds opens up better options to hunt/shutdown a satellite target when the called target isn't going to work for you.

Con's:
- No shield.
- Easy to build characters lacking in defensive options and needing more Monk support.
- Slower attack rate leaves more room to have specific attacks interrupted.
- A few more things to worry about than Sword/Axe users have to face.
- The best hammer KD's require big adrenaline build up before use, so the attack you really want to open with has to wait until you can use it.


A quick word on the runes. You won't need the Superior. Minor will be perfectly sufficient.

[Lurker Wyrm]

Sooooo...Are we going to GvG Monday night (tomorrow), or go for Wednesday again? Either is fine for me; in fact, Monday will be better in general, because I don't have anything else going on that night.

Ok, so here's the catch with that. Monday is bad for Hureg and, while it's better for Soul Flayer and Seijin, I don't want to start knocking people out of the ranks when there are still 3 other days to work with (well, ok 1 other day at this point). I haven't heard any gripes about Thursday, only that it's not as ideal as others. Unfortunately, I haven't seen Seijin in a week, and the last time I talked with Soul Flayer was on Wednesday after the GvGs. So until I hear back from them about this, I think we'll shoot for Wednesday again. If the plans change between now and then I'll make sure to let everyone know.

What's the consensus about using a Shock/Axe build versus a Hammer build for KD?

If you want to keep someone on the ground, definitely hammers. If you just want the utility KD then stick with axes. Really, it depends more on what the team build is that's being used. Hammers are better in pressure builds while axes tend to beat them out in spike and balanced builds. Right now we're using a balanced build but that may change in the future (hopefully).

I don't have a Superior Hammer Mastery rune unlocked

Faction. You should have at least 1k from the two wins last week which will get you started and besides, they're the cheapest rune at the trader if you want to try and get Hawkmoon of Realms PvP ready.

One other thing I haven't mentioned yet - chosing your weapon setups can really make a difference. Against... well... everyone that's not a warrior, you're going to have a higher damage output using a Vampiric weapon (3:1 is the max on swords, axes and daggers, and 5:1 for bows and hammers). Against a warrior, you want to use an elemental weapon to negate the +20 armor vs. physical that most of their armor gets. Most people recommend using Ebon for earth damage since that's the least used and defensable kind, but really it doesn't matter as long as it's not physical damage. Once you can get a PvE char ready for PvP you can bring along a zealous weapon as well to help with energy management, but those two are the most important. Another PvE thing you can do eventually is to get a +15 energy -1 regen wand and focus (for +30/-2). This'll help you get a few extra Shocks in when you're exhausted out and still need to send someone to the ground and it'll also give you a ranged attack to help you build adrenaline while attacking a guild that's turtling (hiding in their base next to the Guild Lord and bodyguards - this happened during our second match a bit) -- this allows you to build up adrenaline without leaving the safety of your monks.

- High pinpoint damage pressure can take down some opponents in seconds opens up better options to hunt/shutdown a satellite target when the called target isn't going to work for you.

The only time you should not be attacking the called target is during a split situation and the called target is for the other team. If you're a part of the attacking team, unloading adrenaline on someone other than the main target (or even just attacking someone else during a spike) is making you a liability to your team.

- Easier to channel attribute points into a Strength/Hammer Mastery combo for big damage (fewer uses for Tactics investments).

You should keep enough in tactics to keep Heal Sig usable. Generally speaking I run a 12/9/9 attribute spec, which winds up as 16 weapon, 10 str, 10 tactics, leaving 3 for air when using Shock.

A quick word on the runes. You won't need the Superior. Minor will be perfectly sufficient.

You should be thrown into the deepest darkest dungeon and have the key thrown away for saying something like that. Running less than 16 on your weapon attribute is probably the dumbest thing you can do as a warrior. Especially when damage is your priority. You might be able to get away with a 15 in certain situations, but I would recommend against it.

[WarBlade]

The only time you should not be attacking the called target is during a split situation and the called target is for the other team. If you're a part of the attacking team, unloading adrenaline on someone other than the main target (or even just attacking someone else during a spike) is making you a liability to your team.

I found out the hard way that there are exceptions to the rule. Sorry if you disagree, but it's true. If I can't reach a called target or if standing in melee range means a surprise death on my character while my team tries to spike the opponent then it's pointless to continue when I could otherwise stick another -15% DP on a nearby Ele.

You should be thrown into the deepest darkest dungeon and have the key thrown away for saying something like that. Running less than 16 on your weapon attribute is probably the dumbest thing you can do as a warrior. Especially when damage is your priority. You might be able to get away with a 15 in certain situations, but I would recommend against it.

Nah. I want life. Staying power. In the case of my Warrior the equipment is all better suited to a max Strength build, so taking on -75 Health to make extremely minor improvements to the two or three Hammer Mastery skills he's usually packing just doesn't compute.

[Lurker Wyrm]

WB, I understand you're trying to offer help/opinions to Hawk to help her get started but, please, don't. You don't have any experience in the area we're going into so you're using the PvE experience you already have and trying to apply it to this. It doesn't work. People have already done the tests and experiments and all that. I'm sorry if you feel I'm being condescending or whatever it was you used to describe me before, but you're just not contributing. If you want to offer advice on hammer builds for PvE then make a different topic, that's not what this one is for.

[WarBlade]

you're using the PvE experience you already have and trying to apply it to this.

Where? Are my posts talking about Rebirth over Resurrection Signet or extoling the virtues of Dolyak Signet? I'm not talking about PvE builds at all.

It doesn't work. People have already done the tests and experiments and all that. I'm sorry if you feel I'm being condescending or whatever it was you used to describe me before, but you're just not contributing. If you want to offer advice on hammer builds for PvE then make a different topic, that's not what this one is for.

No I'll stick to this one seeing as I am referring to PvP.

Yes, you are being condescending. You proclaim that people have done the tests and experiments and then you absolutely refuse to accept any testing or experimentation that doesn't conform to a majority ideal or your own particular viewpoint.

So seeing as my ideas "don't work" let's see what others have developed then.

Guildwiki GvG Builds

W/E "Linebacker" maxes Hammer Mastery to 16 and Strength to 13. That's high strength and not a drop in Tactics.
W/N "Unstoppable Hammer" Maxes Strength to 16 and Hammer Mastery to 13 and is very close to the builds that I've found work well for me.

"Community Approved" apparently. Whatever that entails. I think it means that some of the GvG community should be locked in a deep dark dungeon and have the key thrown away for daring to mention that they had found high Strength investments to be a viable option or something.

I'm so tired of your sniping. Your proclamations that things flat out don't work when others have already proven that they do is of no use to anybody.