'False OCC' to try

[fluffyflyingpig]

Conquest victory in 1817. False OCC? I played this one out as a OCC anyway, even without having OCC checked. Conquest executed with maces beginning in 1559. Swapped out to Grenadiers eventually, then shut down research.

With this much food and wonder averse AI opponents, I was able to chop a mob warriors and use the overflow to build the oracle (monarchy), the GL, National Epic, the pyramids, the hanging gardens, and Angkor Wat. Pyramids were completely worthless, since I had 20+ warriors as military presence happiness boosts. Angkor Wat was the most useful, since I could run priests as for hammers.

More later if I have the time, I guess.

[Iustus]

This looks fun however Im not up to Monarch level yet. I will read the reports.

It is easy to change the difficulty of a save, what difficulty do you want? I will switch it for you and re-upload.

You probably do not want to do this yourself, as you will see things you should not if you are not careful, but one method to do this, is the following:
1) Load the game
2) Enter worldbuilder
3) Save (from worldbuilder), a name you will remember
4) Exit worldbuilder, then exit to main menu from the game
5) Select single player -> custom scenario
6) The scenario you want to pick is the name you saved in step (3)
7) Change all the settings to the ones you want (difficulty, etc)
8 ) Note, you can also play one of the AIs, rather than Montezuma this way, and you will almost certainly see the names of all the opponents, so you will know who you are up against (unless you can get someone else to do it for you). The human player will be the first choice unless someone else has already done this and switched to a different opponent.

-Iustus

[Striker]

I'll give it a go but no promises

[LKendter]

While it looks very tempting, I have have to dedicate my Civ4 time this weekend to Adv15. Take a look at the scenario, and you will understand why.

[uberfish]

True OCC Conquest - 1691 AD, 2:06 played

My objective this game was to get production through specialists since I was going to play it OCC style. Since engineers were limited this meant running lots of priests and building Angkor Wat.

Research: Fishing (mandatory) -> Poly (founded Hindu) -> Mining -> Bronze (slavery, used to build all early buildings) -> Masonry (Pyramids) -> Priesthood (Temples, oracle) -> Mono (founded Judaism) -> Sailing -> Pottery (granary) -> CoL (founded Conf, sacrificial altar) -> CS (Bureau, from oracle) -> Mathematics (Aqueduct, HG) -> Philo (Tao, Wat) -> Metalcasting (Forge) -> Literature (Nat Epic) -> Compass (Harbor) -> Optics -> Theology (for Christianity and theocracy) -> Construction -> Astronomy -> Engineering -> Drama -> Currency -> Chemistry (Which I didn't reach)

The computers were rather slow and I ended up founding 5 religions, which were useful for more Temples.

Wonders built: In accordance with my OCC philosophy to keep GPP as pure as possible when playing a highly focused strategy, I built only world wonders that gave GP or GE points, which were: Pyramids (385 BC), Oracle (115 BC taking CS), Gardens (320 AD), Wat (710 AD). All of those were sped up by whipping. I did *not* build great library since I had an academy already and didn't want any more scientists. I built Nat Epic (~900-1000 AD), Heroic Epic (~1600 AD and largely irrelevant by this point)

GPs: 2 settled engineers, 8 settled prophets, 1 academy, 2 settled generals. I used representation the entire game once I got it.

I used organized religion initially while slowly ramping up my production with Priests and building wonders, then Pacifism after the wonders were done to spam out prophets, then theocracy to train 8 galleys, 16 maces and 8 catapults while waiting for Astronomy to research. When astronomy finished I upgraded the galleys to galleons and invaded Shaka (1484-1568) who only had archers, then Mao (1586-1625) who also only had archers. Genghis had longbows and Keshik, but failed to put up much of a fight either. As it turned out, none of the AIs had metals at all, must be an issue with whatever script was used to generate the map. I doubt it would have affected the outcome much though as I had mass trebuchets by the time I reached the only other Medieval civ.

The resource distribution probably crippled the AIs in this one as they couldn't get their cities past size 9 or 10.

[Iustus]

I noticed that problem with the metals. That was pure luck, I am fairly certain it did not happen the same way on the vanilla map I generated. I could have manually fixed it, had I realized.

I am curious to see what Blake's version does, if he was running his improved AI. The AIs should have some massive food cities too, which will do much better with his whipping changes.

I think perhaps I might have made this too easy, by giving the start too much food. And the random AI civs turned out to be easier than some others might have been. Giving the AIs better land to start would have made it more challenging.

I suppose that is why Sirian is the master at making scenarios, and I am not.

Since it is relatively easy to do, I went ahead and added a new save to the first post, one that will be much much harder. This is not the same map, I generated a new one. This one still has clumped resources, but does not reduce them, so it will actually have more resources than a normal map (adds clumps, does not remove anything). The climate is tropical instead of cold. There are different, more challenging opponent AIs as well. I did not have to make any metal changes, since their initial metals were not being removed by the script in the first place. The player start has less food as well. It is quite possible I errored too far in the other direction and this save is impossible.

-Iustus

[Iainuki]

I played the vanilla version, and while I'm not completely convinced, it doesn't seem very possible to me. In my first game, the Oracle was built in 1480 BC, cutting me off from the CSS post-haste; I tried to get the Pyramids, but my production was so poor I couldn't finish them before they got built too, in the early BC era. I tried playing it again from the top, with a tighter emphasis on achieving one or the other of the slingshots, but in a couple of runs it turned out that I never had enough science/production to pull off the Oracle version of the CSS, because it was invariably built soon after 1000 BC, before I could finish researching Code of Laws or finish the wonder itself. I checked the Pyramids completion time in one of those games: it was 80 AD, so it might be possible to get that wonder with some amount of luck. With neither wonder in hand, I decided it wasn't worth continuing, since there's no way to keep up tech in Monarch with a single isolated city without some significant advantage. If you're going into it blind, it seems like you'll lose if you try to go for the Oracle, with the Pyramids an undetermined win or loss. I might try another game, this time ignoring the Oracle and shooting for the Pyramids, but even if I succeed, it's going to be due to luck and spoiler information. Meanwhile, the Pyramids and the slow form of the CSS are mutually exclusive, and since you have to build something, this pretty much delays Bureaucracy into the later AD era at the earliest. Uberfish's game relied on getting both the Pyramids and the Oracle late (as apparently did Fluffyflyingpig's) so the inability to get both in the vanilla game looks like a strong disadvantage.

Picking a civ with a useless trait (Aggressive) and no Fishing to start is painful--there's no good way to use the production from the first 9 turns, which puts you a good distance behind the AIs no matter what you do. If the Warlords version with the updated resources and the vanilla version are at all similar, changing to a civ with worthwhile traits would be an easy way to decrease the difficulty.

[Iainuki]

I did a little more testing on the vanilla version. The AIs built the Pyramids in 430 BC and 235 BC in two attempts I made; I guess I'm not as efficient as uberfish, because I wasn't able to get them either time. (What production and worker assignments did you use, uberfish?) The 430 BC Pyramids co-occurred with late Oracle, 595 BC, but without knowing that in advance, finishing it of course seemed unlikely.

I imagine it's possible to win the vanilla version, but at the moment it looks like it would take a significant amount of luck, to pick the right wonder.

[Maksim]

I've tried this one as well (vanilla version, that is). Didn't go for any slingshots - in fact, decided not to bother with wonders at all.

The key tech for me was Code Of Laws, for the Caste System, and the ability to run as many scientists as one likes. I've also used Slavery, of course, to whip pretty much every building.

Religion is debatable. I've been able to get both Buddhism and Hinduism (and Confucianism later). The three monasteries helped research, and the temples helped with the happiness issues.

Monarchy is likely a worthy detour, as Hereditary Rule is very useful.

Knowing that the capital is founded on Iron, I'd probably avoid IW on replay for as long as possible, because as soon as it's discovered, you lose the ability to build cheap MP warriors.

I don't think that CS slingshot is worth it here, because most of your research should be coming from specialists.

I also still haven't figured out the best strategy for tech research once you start getting Great People. Is it possible for your Great Scientists tor esearch Optics/Astronomy for you, or will they go for Philo/Paper/Education first?

Overall, it's an interesting, counter-intuitive and puzzling start. I'm likely to replay it at some point, trying to get down the time required to get off the island.

Thanks, Iustus!

[Iustus]

Glad you enjoyed it!

The first time I generated the map, I selected random civ, but getting Montezuma, I decided that it was a good choice, having the as you say, useless trait.

In my game, I settled virtually every great person I got, which became rather huge. I got many early prophets, all which were settled. Pyramids seems to me to be the one wonder you really want to get, that and the great library. Running representation and pacifism worked for me. I think I had about 8 settled prophets.

-Iustus