I think you are maybe right, the problem is not the number of bases but the invulnerability planetary shield gives you, I will try that!
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Seemengly unwinnable games
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Somewhat to answer to the other thread, but to stay intopic. Lately Ive been trying to do good times in winning by extermination both in hard and impossible. And I'm developing very different strategies and I'm getting a lot of fun of trying that. I looked at some imperium games and saw some impressive numbers in how early some people win by extermination. I tried to play the same games, but I couldn't even become close to winning before them.
I still think that defensive is the most powerfull strategy by far. But trying to win before a specific year by extermination is a very fun twist to play with. Waterd Wrote:Oh. I don't know why that isn't stickied or somewhere, I alredy played the 22 game and used every thing you considered banned. Sorry if it says it somewhere visible and I missed it.Yeep - sorry! Not only is it nowhere visible, but as you noticed, it doesn't always come to especially clear conclusions (disagreements over some points continue to the end!) - for that matter, I know that some of the early Imperium reports mentioned use of exploits that were on that list in one capacity or another (well, to the extent the discussion did resolve into a list) and none of the official Imperium Rules refer to the thread or anything on it specifically. Yeah, the "missile back-up trick," fully exploited, is considered pretty much game-breaking, but there'd be no way to know that with the relevant threads buried in site history, and almost every other rule has been bent or broken by an Imperium player at some point when it seemed appropriate to the game. If I can pull together some time to do so, I'll mine that thread for ideas/conclusions again as best I can and post a new Official Exploits Thread of some kind (I prefer this over necro'ing that one since I can keep Post One in the thread updated with whatever the latest consensus seems to be without editing dathon's original post.) In the meantime, if you've got a report on Imperium 22, even if it is a "Shadow Report" for unknowingly playing with exploits, I'd love to read it! Quote:But As I said you don't even need to build any military with humans in general. you just win pressing next turn. That's different if you aren't allowed to threat, bribe or more important ask for DOW to every race in the planet.Eh ... I enjoy researching, exploring, expanding, and conducting diplomacy (though it's true I don't threaten or bribe, and request DoWs only against races already at war with me, and only from races not allied to the enemy in question) with or without building military. But yeah, taking powerful diplomatic options off the table allows far more variation and excitement in the game! (I kind of like the idea of requesting DoWs only from allies too; I'll think about that one for my own games, though the rules I have adopted have pretty much cut out all my DoW requests anyway....) Waterd Wrote:I want to share games I think are unwinnable, and that At least i was not even close to win in my first try, so maybe someone can show me a way i cannot see.Might just be a case where you ran into some bad rolls in AI decision making, but I'm interested, and hope to check this out (and the other savefile you posted) when I get an opportunity. Of course, that means after getting Imperium 23 together ... and checking out the patch improvements Kyrub made with the Psilon save ... and hopefully creating some kind of exploit thread ... so we'll see. Waterd Wrote:Somewhat to answer to the other thread, but to stay intopic. Lately Ive been trying to do good times in winning by extermination both in hard and impossible. And I'm developing very different strategies and I'm getting a lot of fun of trying that.Glad to hear it! A new set of goals and gameplay restrictions to create more fun and challenge in a good, old, well-worn game? Yup, sounds like the Realms Beyond to me!
September 9th, 2009, 02:27
(This post was last modified: September 9th, 2009, 03:57 by Slawek_D.)
Hi all, this is my first post at the RBO forum. First of all – thank you all for keeping up playing this great game, MOO, even if it is already 15 years old! I am myself also a dedicated fan of the game, I play it since about 1996. Although I mostly don’t have enough time in the RL to play the Imperia, I read the reports with great interest. I also played some of the Imperia later on as shadow games, and I must admit I learned a great deal of new strategies in this old game! Special thanks to RefSteel for his reports and to sargon0 for providing detailed strategies.
I think Mrrshans are a little bit underestimated on this forum. My point is that like any other race, they need to be played with a specific strategy style to best use their advantage (just compare the style difference between playing Sakkras and Silicoids!). I would characterize this style as Aggressive Militarist/Technologist. IMHO, the player needs to be the aggressive, attacking site if (s)he hopes to achieve victory. Mrrshans need to secure themselves some good tech in the Weapon, Computer and Propulsion areas, and then they should attack the enemies and get the other lacking techs by ground combat. It is vital to not be overtaken too much by the enemies in the overall technology, so sourcing the tech by spying/trade is necessary (especially Construction, since Mrrshans are Poor in this field). Having as good military technology as the enemy has, Mrrshans can use their racial bonus to take control over the skies and destroy the enemy. It is possible even if the Mrrshan economy is substantially weaker than the enemy economy – the racial bonus simply means you need fewer ships to dominate the fleet combat. I played the first save provided by Waterd. It is winnable – I achieved a Domination Victory in 2450, and was short of Conquest Victory. I think Extermination would be achievable before 2475. The turnlog follows in the next post. Main strategy choices I used were: - scrap the Colony ship if you cannot use it to settle a second planet - research technology from very early turns, to get the most out of the 7.5% bonus - technology is everything – spy, trade, steal by ground combat, research a lot - scout aggressively, expand aggressively – use LR colony ships if needed - for Mrrshans I prefer using lots of small ships instead of few huges - I do not build any missile bases - since we have a bonus to the ship attack, they should provide a much better protection - Mrrshans should be aggressive even if weaker, because this is the best way to improve their position (see how my taking over Argus from Meklars, even without having a good Fighter ship, provided me the Neutron Pellet Gun tech which I used to win the war)
September 9th, 2009, 02:36
(This post was last modified: September 9th, 2009, 10:03 by Slawek_D.)
The turnlog for the first save game from Waterd:
2300: we play Mrrshans on Impossible, Medium galaxy. Our five opponents are Meklar, Psilon, Klackon, Human, Darlok. There is only one planet in 3 parsec range, at 2pc from Fierias, so I send the colony ship there. Meanwhile, I send the scouts to the nearby green and yellow planets. Fieras produces new factories. 2301: nothing 2302: colony ship arrives at Gorra, which is Barren 40. This means I have no use of the colony ship until I research at least Range 4. I scrap the colony ship (I get 147 BC into the reserve) to have more resources for developing Fierias. In the next turns, I will transfer as much reserves as possible to Fierias to speed up its growth. I design Scout 2 and set Fierias to produce 5 of them, while still building factories. 2303: I send out the 5 scouts to the nearby planets. 2304: the yellow star is Talas, Arid 75. Since all other yellow stars are far away, this promises a good early expansion. The right-bottom corner of the galaxy is practically ours. Time to start looking into early technology choices. I spend initial 4RP to open planetology and propulsion fields. 2305: The green star is Crius, Tundra 50 Rich. In planetology, I select IT10 (160 BC) over controlled Barren. In propulsion, I only can research Range 4 (360BC). I set the research amount to equal and seed the techs with 44 BC. 2306: I set the tech spending to 6 BC, while building up the factories. Fieras has now 56 pop and 59 factories. 2307: nothing 2308: nothing 2309: the scouts report further 4 habitable planets in the 6 BC range: Endoria (35 URich), Omicron (60 UPoor), Colassa 45, Ukko 50. The priority is to colonize Endoria, but for that I need to colonize Omicron first. 2310-2314: nothing, apart from slowly increasing the tech spending to use the 7.5% bonus 2315: planetology field reaches 4% 2316: and it pops! new choices are controlled dead and death spores. I take the controlled dead tech (3240 RP), barren is not worth researching now. However, I will not spend too many RPs in the Planetology field now - colonizing Endoria is more important. Out of curiosity, I set a few clicks to the other four tech fields to see what awaits me. 2317: In the Computers field there are the ECMI(160 RP) vs BCMII. In the Construction there is only Waste80%, costing 1250 RP. This must be the result of Mrrshans being poor in Construction. Force fields has Shields II for 640 RP. Weapons are Hand Lasers (90RP) vs. Hyper-V Rockets. I think Computer and Weapon research is essential when playing Mrrshans - I seed these fields. However, I will skip Construction and FFs for now, it might be better to take the technologies from the other races  I set a few clicks to ECO on Fierias to begin the terraforming. 2318: Fierias has now 85/103 pop and 136 factories. 2319: Range 4 reaches 1% 2320: 4% for now 2321: 7% for now 2322: Fierias has 92/110 po and 172 factories. I design a colony ship - it can be built in 5 turns while I still spend 17 RP on research. With 9% (which means 18%) chance of hitting the range tech, it should be finished before I build the ship. 2323: Range 4 researched! Next in turn is Inertial Stabilizer (4000RP). I dont think it might be useful for my planned Small ships, but maybe after researching this some much better range/engine tech would be available? 2324-2326: nothing 2327: our scouts encounter Meklars on the Radiated Rich planet on Neptunus. This means that our west-side neighbours are the Borgs. Colony ship is built and sent to Omicron. 2331: Omicron colonized, 11 colonists sent. 2332: Hand lasers researched. The next ones are Hyper-X-Rockets or Fusion Bombs (1940 RP). I take the bombs. Colony ship ready and sent to Endoria. I'll build up the factories for two turns, and then build another ship for Talas. It seems it was a mistake to not research barren landings. Now I cannot expand to northwest without the dead landing tech  It also seems that the Waste 80% tech was not that expensive after all... I reopen this tech field. Transport another 6 colonists to Omicron. 2334: start building the colony ship. This time it'll be ready in 6 turns. 2335: The 11 colonists land on Omicron. I do not hope to have any substantial industrial output from Omicron anytime soon, so I set the full slider to technology, producing 6 RP. 2337: Endoria colonized. I send there 11 colonists from Omicron and 4 from Fierias. 2339: Darloks appear with an armed ship at north-west Proxima, while Klackon colony ship comes from North-East to Ukko but is chased away by our scout. Jammer 1 researched - the next tech is Robotic Controls III for 2560 RP. Colony ship produced (in 5 turns!) and sent to Talas. There is not much more to be produced on Fierias - almost all the production is switched towards the technology now. 2340-2342: nothing 2343: Talas colonized. I send there 7 transports from Fierias. 2344-2346: nothing 2347: Te Android says that Meklars already control 6 star systems. But this will change soon, Controlled Dead is already 75% complete... 2348: Endoria shows MAX factories, having 32/35 pop. I slowly start the terraforming, and send in 6 colonists from Omicron to provide pop for the new factories. 2349: Meklar Fighter managed to scout the Barren Gorra planet. 2350: Endoria finished terraforming and has now 41/45 pop. 2352: Endoria maxes out the factories. Next all the production will go into planetary reserve. From the reserve, I will give money to Endoria (to fully exploit the URich bonus), to the planets in development, and to Fierias to pump up the tech. 2353: controlled dead researched. Next is Inferno, Toxic and IT+30 (7840RP). Endoria starts building a Dead colony ship, while Fierias concentrates the research on the Construction tech. 2355: Dead colony ship build and sent to Fierias by reloc. Now Endoria builds a standard colony ship for settling Colassa. 2356: Colony ship sent to Fierias by reloc. Next is a Dead colony ship for Aquilae. 2357: Fierias maxes out the factories. 2358: Reduced industrial Waste 80 researched. Next is IIT8 for 3200. I think I can skip it for now and concentrate on the Propulsion, Weapon and Computer fields. Dead colony ship sent to Aquilae. 2361: Gorra colonized, which brings us in contact with the Meklars. They indeed have 6 planets and they occupy the bottom-left corner of the galaxy. On the power graph, they are better than us in every aspect... Let's spy on them a little bit. Dead colony ship sent to Crius. 2362: Hey, I can build LR colony ships! And I could use at least two of them... 2363: I infiltrated a Meklar base! I can choose between Computers, FFields, Propulsion and Weapons. I still do not know what they have researched in these fields though... I think I might make a good use of propulsion now. I steal... Range6! This is a blessing in my current situation! The other things avaliable are not worth much: Shields II, MArk2 and Hyper-X Rockets. However, in construction they have Duralloy (!) and Waste 60%. These are interesting techs... 2364: Aquilae colonized. Omicron sends in 8 colonists. The Tao planet discovered - it is a Tundra 25, in range 6 off my other planets. Being quite far north, It could make for a good support point for my future fleets. 2365: Colassa colonized. Gorra sends in 8 pop. 2366: A virus struck my FF research network, destroying 100 Research points. However, I didnt spend a single RP into this field in the last 50 years! 2367: Crius colonized. Fierias sends 10 pop. 2368: Psilons, these erratic technologists, colonize Ukko It's five turns before my colony ship could arrive there. Since I do not accept this, Talas sends 20 pop to Ukko.2369: I spied on Meklars again! This time, Construction tech is avalilable. I get Duralloy armor - right in time for the invasion on Psilons! 2370: Inertial Stabilizer researched. Next are Sub-Lights (5760 RP). I trade with Psilons Inertial stabilizer for Improved Eco Restoration. However, the Meklars do not want to trade me any interesting tech... 2373: Lyae colonized. My Mrshanns capture Ukko loosing only one colonist, but they do not find any interesting tech there. Now I already have 10 planets. Psilons DOW, obviously. OOps, there is a sizable Psilon fleet enroute (22 medium ships!)... I design a small ship Ferret with one laser, Mark1 computer and Inertial stabilizers. I transfer the planetary reserves to Fierias and Talas and let them build it with an relocation on Ukko (ETa-5 turns). 2374: 17 Psilons land on Ukko. Although we both have Duralloy and only I have hand lasers, they manage to kill 17 of my pop, leaving only 3. But, 28 Ferrets are already flying towards Ukko with help! 2376: Fusion Bomb researched. Next is Neutron Blaster (5400 RP). 2377: Robotic Rontrols III researched. Next is improved space scanner (6760 RP). I set Endoria to build up the factories. 2378: My 28 Ferrets chase away a Meklar colony ship and two Medium Psilon ships. There is also a Large Human warship, but we destroy it loosing 6 Ferrets. 2379: Another battle at Ukko. We are attacked by a Psilon colony ship and 7 medium warships. However, they only shot missiles on the planet so I destroy them without losses. However, the colony ship manages to drop some death spores! These Psilons must die!!! 2380: Out of 21 landing Psilons, 14 survived the shots of my ships and 7 survived the battle with my 7 colonists, taking over the planet. Well, I guess I need to send another colonist wave... 2382: Proxima colonized. I have 10 planets again. 2384: In the news, I am the second in the production ranking, after the Meklars and before the Klackons! 2385: 34 Mrrshans land on Ukko, killing the 13 Psilon defenders and capturing 11 factories. 2386-2389: nothing essential, building up factories, researching tech,... 2890: 52 medium Psilon warships land on Ukko, destroy my Ferrets and destroy the planet itself. 2891: Jinga colonized, I have 11 planets again. 2393: We steal Improved Construction 6 from Meklars. IT+30 Researched. Next is Controlled Toxic(9000 RP) and IT+40 2394: Meklar base infiltrated again! We steal Reduced Waste 60%. But, we were caught and we got a warning message from the borg ruler. 2395: Sub-light drives researched. Next are Fusion drives (12960 RP). Psilons beg for peace. We accept, we need time to prepare the fleets... 2397: We steal Computer Mark3 from the Meklars. 2398: Neutron blaster researched. Next is Graviton beam (6390 RP). Gorra rebels! 26 rebels controll the planet. Meklars DOW. Neutron blaster doesn't fit on the small ship! Also, Fusion Bomb and Jammer 1 also do not fit. I need some more construction and weapon tech now! 2399: Still one rebel left at Gorra. 2400: We colonize Spica, Centauri and recapture Gorra. This triggers the 13 planets message, and also the Council voting. Its us vs. the Meklars: Meklars 5 for them Psilons 2 abstain Klackons 2 abstain Humans 4 abtsain Darloks 4 abstain Mrrshans 7 abstain With 7/24 votes, it should be easy to have a veto by 2424... We get in contact with Klackons and Darloks. This is how the galaxy as we know it looks like now: (see 2400s screenshots) 2402: oops, the Meklars sent some Huge Nexus ship, looks like it moves in the direction of Crius. As an emergency solution I design a Laser-based small ship Fighter 1.0 and let Crius build it. 2403: The NExus landed on Colassa, and bombed it destroying 8 pop and 43 fact. I send the Fighters 1.0 to Colassa, while still waiting for the Weapon and Computer research to be finished (bulbs almost full). 2404: My 108 Fighters 1.0 meet 2 Nexus' at Colassa and are quickly destroyed. 50 Meklar troops are enroute. 2405: Wow, we defend Colassa! 9 colonists survived. 2406: Another 28 colonists enroute to Colassa... This will be likely too much. 2407: ISP Scanner researched. Next is Mark IV (9000 RP). Meklars take Colassa and steal Inertial Stabilizer. I still cannot design a nice strong small ship. To improve my chances at designing a small but spacious ship, I need to have more construction and weapon tehc. I get from the Klackons IndTech9 for Hand Lasers. They also give me IndTEch8 for Waste80. This enables a next tech in my construction research: it's Battle Suits(6050 RP). Trade with Darloks: we get Class II shields for Imp Space Scanner. Next research choice in FFs is Personal Deflector shield(2560 RP). I open the FF research, the personal shields can be quite useful. 2408: Graviton beam researched. Next are Hyper-Vs(380 RP). I still cannot fit any good weapon on the small ship! The ship has 56 space, but Graviton beam takes 63 and neutron blaster 67! Psilons give me Anti-Missle Rockets for Improved Space Scanner. 2409: Hyper-Vs researched. Next are Hyper-Xs (1530 RP). Graviton Beam needs 57 space Psilons have no interesting techs anymore, Klackons and Darloks do not want to talk to me Meklars left some planets without a fleet protection. Lets bomb them, take them over and take the tech. I design a Bomber 1.0 woth Fusion Bombs, ECM1, Sub-Lights and build it on Endoria and Crius. 2410-2411: producing bombers... 2412: Meklars attack Proxima. Hyper-X researched. Next is Fusion Rifle (13820). Psilons DOW. 297 bombers sent from Crius to Colassa, which is unguarded now. I still cannot fit anything useful on the mini ship! Grav. Beam needs 59 space! 2413: 206 bombers survive on Colassa, destroying 12 bases. In a turn, massive Meklar fleet will come to the planet - I return to Crius. Controlled Toxic researched. Next is Tform+40 (16000 RP). 2414: Meklars capture Proxima. Darloks DOW. 376 bombers sent to Argus. 2415: Pesonal defl shield complete. Next is: V Planetary Shield (5760 RP). Spica will be attacked in a short time. Send 10 Pop to unguarded Proxima (9 pop). 2416: Spica 376 Bombers vs 21 bases: 198 survive. Argus is also explored. Meklars defend Proxima, although we have +10 gropo advantage. Ukko is temporarliy unguarded - I send 24 pop to this 13pop planet. 2417: 5 troops from Spica capture proxima! Found a tech there: mass driver. 2418: Fusion Drives researched. Next: Impulse Drives (23040). Spica bombed and destroyed by the Meklars. Now the graviton beam already fits on the small ship, but the other choices are poor. I wait for further tech, meanwhile build huge hull on Endoria. 2419: Yarrow colonized. Ukko captured from Psilons! Argus is also captured (TForm +20, Range 8, Shields IV, NPGun, MArk VI, Rob Controls IV). I build a Fighter 2.0 ship with 2 NPGs and Mark I onboard. Fierias will be soon attacked by 1 huge Meklar ship. Fierias, Gorra and Talas build 70 Fighters. Crius and Endoria do it too, but their ships will arive in 2 turns. 2420: The number of Fighters 2.0 reduced from 109 to 35, but they win!!! Selia colonized. We meet Humans. I have probably not enough pop for a veto, but Humans like me and are at war with meklars. This may help. I trade some tech with Humans and sign a NAP. 2421: Ukko destroyed by psilons. Meklars capture Proxima and steal Controlled Toxic. Lost contact with Humans, Darloks, Psilons. 2422: Sent 234 Fighters to Proxima, Gorra sends 30 pop there. 2424: Proxima captured. Tech found: class V shields. Contacts to the other races restored. 2425: In the voting, it is us vs. the Meklars: Meklars 5 for them Psilons 2 Meklars Klackons 2 Meklars Humans 4 us Darloks 4 Meklars Mrrshans 9 abstain We have 9/26 votes, so it is already a veto. No diplomatic loss can happen anymore. The Proxima fleet goes back to Fierias since huge fleet (5 huge ships) approaches. 2426: Proxima destroyed by Meklars. 2427: Fierias defended by 650 Fighters. 500 remained. I start preparations for defense of Gorra and for attack on Colassa. Crius builds more bombers, bombers from Argus fly to Cloassa. 2428: First huge Meklar ship on Gorra destroyed. 55 pop from Fierias sent to colassa. 2429: Three huges destroyed on Gorra. 2430: Colassa captured, 2 huges and 14 bases destroyed. Ground combat: 35 survived. Tech found: Range 9, Mark VII, WAste 40%, MArk II, Jammer 4, Jammer 3. Traded Auto repair System for Inertial Stabilizer with the Klackons. Designed a better Bomber 3.0 (Fusion Bomb, Fusin Drives, Inertial Stab, Jammer III). 278 Fighters 2.0 and 10 pop sent to Ukko, now occupied by Klackons. 2431: Fighter 3.0 designed: 2NPGs, Mark II, shield I, Duralloy, Fusion Drives 2432: Ukko captured from the Klackons, but no tech found. Klackons DOW. 2433: Meklar planet Draconis attacked, 18 bases and 1 huge ship destroyed. The planet is Ultra poor, but it still has many factories so it pays to take it over by ground combat. Mark IV researched. Next is ADV Scannr (21160 RP). 2434: I attack Rotan: 30 bases are there, I think I dont have enough bombers. Retreat. 2435: Draconis captured. Tech found: Soil Enrichment, Fusion Beam. 2436: Proxima colonized. Population ranking is in the news: we are the first, Darloks the second. Humans, the Eratic Diplomats, say they do not like the fact that I am expanding... But I tell them to DOW on Darlocks, and they agree if I give them Mass Driver. That's a good deal, I just dont want them to vote for Darlocks in the next election. 2437: Fusion Rifle researched. Next is Megabolt Cannon (15000 RP). 2438: Proxima is again destroyed by Meklars. Huge meklar fleet approaches Draconis in 2 turns - I send fighters there. Tauri seems to be not guarded by Meklar ships - I have no fighters free but I send 500 bombers. 2439: Battle suits researched. Next is Zortium Armor (14450 RP). Somehow a huge ship appeared at Tauri - my bombers ignore it and destroy 26 bases, then retreat. Galos (Psilon planet) glassed. 2440: Draconis defended, 4 huges destroyed. Next target for the fleet: Tauri in 2 turns 2441: Further Psilon fleets chased away from Galos. Now they have only Mentar, and the repeated attempts to colonize Galos and Ukko must be hurting their economy, which is good for us. 2442: Tauri is ours! 70 colonists sent. Fleet goes to Meklon. Ryoun colonized. 2443: Meklon has 57 bases, but they sent the rockets towards the fighters. Fighters try to avoid the rockets while bombers destroy the bases. 2444: Tauri is ours (Ind tech 4, Planet shield V). In the news: we already have 18 planets On Rotan, the missiles destroy all the fighters. The bombers destroy the bases but must retreat. Darloks praise our efforts in fighting Meklars. It seems that Meklars were at war with almost everyone, excluding Klackons. 2445: Meklars destroy our fleet at meklon! 110 colonists approaching the planet are in danger! In Planetology, It40 hits. Next is cloning. 2446: Rotan glassed. Next target for the fleet: Maretta, one of the last two Meklar planets. A part of the fleet goes to Mentar in a desperate attempt to destroy Psilons before the elections. 110 colonists land on Meklon! 64 survive. Tech found: Atmos terraforming. It seems that the Meklar fleet left to Maretta! Darloks offer 700 bc for peace. Well, lets agree for now, we can always change our mind... Meanwhile, I terraform/Soil planets wherever possible to increase my pop for the voting. 2448: Proxima colonized. Maretta glassed. The Meklar empire is destroyed. 2449: Heavy fights at Mentar, all my fighters are destroyed. The bombers stay over the planet and drop all the bombs, ignoring the attacking Psilon fleet. However, the planet survives with 28 pop, and the bombers retreat. Psilon planet Galos glassed bu us again. Save the game in case we win this election, max pop wherever possible. 2450: It's us against the Humans! And here the votes: Psilons 1 Humans Klackons 3 Humans Humans 4 Humans Darloks 4 for us! Mrrshans 22 - let's vote for us 26/34 votes mean that we are chosen to be the new Galactic Emperor. We accept this Domination victory. Since the file names of the screenshots are somehow not visible here, this is what the images show: 1. Galaxy map - year 2400 2. Racial stats - year 2400 3. Galaxy map - year 2449 4. Racial stats - year 2449 |
