Summoned units

[Catwalk]

Good points about movement, I agree with your proposed values. I think all units should have minimum 2 movement, else they'd slow down a stack of rampaging monsters even if they're combat summons.

I want to remove non-corporeal from Magic Spirit, or better still make it impossible for non-corporeal units to walk on water. It's too easy to explore with magic spirit at the start of the game, and if all get access to Floating Island it doesn't need water walking ability to reach island nodes. It always bothered me how irrelevant exploration was because you could always crank out 3-4 spirits early on to explore the whole map for you in no time.

[kyrub]

Cannot see this implemented. The "transmit Magic spirit to another continent with a boat" means a completely new branch in the AI. I could try to use the settlers route, but it's a hazard with unknown results. You may speak about it with WhiteMage, who could surely procure the desired end result *if* we can setup the external AI.

For the time being, I have another suggestion. Let's give both Spirits 0 scouting (I can do it I guess). They will not reveal any terrain, so they'll be useless for scouting.

[Catwalk]

Ah, 0 scouting sounds good. Even if it means exploring the tile they're on, that'd be fine.

[WhiteMage]

0 scout magic spirit with 1 movement point, no half movement use, keeping noncorporeal, no powerup (unlike most other monsters) and make it researchable spell is what I think is best.

Regarding using movement 1 very sparingly I agree and that is my intention, but some still should stay at 1. Battle monsters particularly use 1 movement point for exact reason that they do not move on overall map and they are support, assault, or defensive troops mainly, not blitzkrieg ones. Raiders moving with 1 is not a problem to me. You can encounter them better. It adds to the challenge and thrill, rather than a simple draw of luck, being surprised with no warning sign. In battle, you can avoid them, but typically can’t win without defeating them. Also, you can’t exploit them as an attacker spell. Regarding making “move 2” monsters from v1.31 a 3 or 4 in Catnip, I don’t think so. Making army move fast is a strategy issue and preference. Making city attacks slow and hard is a balance issue. The second is more important than the first. However, I’m OK with beefing up movement a little more, but not as much as you propose. I will also take a better look at the new racial units table as I agree with matching those values to some degree.
Regarding life steal no value means 0. No penalty, no bonus. Would this be a problem? I think in v1.31 that’s how it was displayed and I got from there.

Anyway, no serious worries since we plan to have more versions of Catnip, so we can make later changes, but I do my best for now.

[Catwalk]

The global movement increase is already decided and implemented for normal units, and the intention is that summoned units will have this as well. We are interested in having a faster paced game, both on the overland map and in combat. Normal units get a speed increase of between 50% and 100%, the same should go for summoned units. We can't test out this change properly unless it's done consistently. I'm sorry for not making this clear earlier.

Magic Spirit as a researchable spell won't make it into v2.0. I'd much prefer it at speed 2 as it'll be a pain to get it to nodes otherwise.

Speed 1 units will likely be a big detriment for the AI players who'll probably include them in stacks anyway, not knowing how much they slow them down. I think it should be reserved for combat summons only.

[Catwalk]

Some feedback on chaos creatures.

Chaos Spawn
These are always so easy to take down with ranged units. How about armour 10? Doom8 sounds a bit crazy, means you'll never want to fight them with anything but ranged troops. Speed 2.

Chimera
These were never impressive in v1.31 either, but I don't know what rarity level they'll be at so I won't comment on their strength. Speed 4.

Doom Bat
These are puny in v1.31. Improving Immolation will help, not sure if that'll be done in time for v2.0. Speed 5, how about casting cost of 250?

Efreet
I don't think combining magic ammo with casting skill will work, I recall trying that. How about no ranged attack, melee 15, armour 10 and 20 HP?

Fire Elemental
Looks good, it definitely needed improvement. How about missile immunity? Fits thematically as well, arrows pass through an elemental being.

Fire Giant
I think he looks pretty weak, don't know where to improve him.

Gargoyles
I like these. Can we add another HP to them? Speed 3.

Great Drake
Way too easy to take down with ranged troops for their cost. Armour 15 and 40 hits? Speed 3.

Hell Hounds
I like these too. Speed 3.

Hydra
I assume that's 90 HP total not per head :neenernee I think they look too weak as is. +2 to hit and armour 6?

[Vagabond]

I guess I should have gone more in depth on the reasons for my suggestions, as they extend far beyond overland movement limits. Overland was just a simple example that applied across the board, other reasons were more specific to monster...


Death Knights 4f, Demon 3f, Wraiths 3f
Explanation: These two were done to keep pace with movement increases. They were also the ones I thought the longest about not including.

Chaos Spawn 2
Explanation: Chaos Spawn is a melee monster. If it moves 1/2 the rate of the rest of your army, you have two choices in tactical combat. 1) Wait for the chaos spawn to inch up and just tough out enemy ranged fire. But Chaos is all attack, you will get murdered. 2) Move other units up and engage while the Chaos Spawn slowly moves up. By the time the Chaos Spawn engages, the fight will be mostly over. Either way, you're left with an expensive but terrible unit.

Chimera 3f, Hell Hounds 3
Explanation: Hell Hounds are a skirmish unit. Good at attack, mediocre on defense. To be good at that job, they need Cav-like movement, not footman movement. I actually feel I was conservative here, not giving them the same movement as Cav. Chimera are really just an upgraded Hell Hound. They've got flight and better stats, but fight role is the same.

Colossus 3, Storm Giant 3, Unicorns 3, Sprites 3f
Explanation: These guys were an aesthetic change that had almost no game impact. I think giants and horses with horns should move faster than footmen. Sprites could go either way, but I thought they could make fun scouts, too. And since they're ranged or teleporting units, I didn't have to worry about balance when upgrading their speed and could instead go for aesthetics.

Fire Elemental 2, Phantom Warriors 2
Explanation: These combat summoned units are offensive, while earth elemental and zombies are defensive. Offensive units that can't engage the enemy are worthless. Also, don't forget they get summoning sickness so it's not like you get to summon them, move and attack all on the same round.

Skeletons 2
Explanation: Skeletons suck, more now than in 1.31. They have 1 health and 1 movement. I liked their 1 health so I instead suggested movement 2. Their still pretty pathetic, which is why I had also been considering pushing for 0 upkeep.

Great Drake 3f, Sky Drake 4f
Explanation: Drakes should be terrifying. They've got beefy stats, but if they can't engage units on their terms then they aren't so hot. I had Sky Drake higher than Great Drake due to Sorcery being more air/wind/travel based than Chaos.

Gargoyles 3f
Explanation: Most units fall into one of 4 categories: slow heavy hitters, fast skirmishers, ranged and support (spells, spider web, etc.) Gargoyles aren't heavy hitters, but they're very tough. At speed two their anemic slow heavy hitters. So I suggest taking them to speed 3 to make them fast road blocks.

[Catwalk]

I agree with your points. How about Great Drake at speed 4 and Sky Drake at speed 6? They're supposed to be big bad menacing monsters swooping down on you.

[Vagabond]

I agree with your points. How about Great Drake at speed 4 and Sky Drake at speed 6? They're supposed to be big bad menacing monsters swooping down on you.

I do like Air Elemental being faster than Sky Drake. At most I could see 5 Sky Drake, 6 Air Elemental. I know Sky Drake is a more expensive spell, but that doesn't mean it has to better at everything.

Efreet
I don't think combining magic ammo with casting skill will work, I recall trying that. How about no ranged attack, melee 15, armour 10 and 20 HP?

You can combine casting skill with a magic ranged attack. It would just take 3 mana/shot just like for heroes. I have no idea how hard a change that is to make, however, I just know that's how the Djinn in the 2.0 mod work. (not Catnip 2.0)

The global movement increase is already decided and implemented for normal units, and the intention is that summoned units will have this as well. We are interested in having a faster paced game, both on the overland map and in combat. Normal units get a speed increase of between 50% and 100%, the same should go for summoned units. We can't test out this change properly unless it's done consistently. I'm sorry for not making this clear earlier.

I forget to address this earlier. I don't believe we should do a flat 50/100% speed increase for summoned monsters. I instead believe we should match summoned monster role to normal unit role and then base movement on that. Now, in general that's already done in MoM baseline which is why my speed suggestions were mostly just a flat increase. However, what if we decide to change a monster's role? I believe at one point you suggested changing sprites to light melee units. At that point they're skirmishers, and their speed should be based on normal unit skirmishers (cav, wolf riders, etc.)

[Catwalk]

I do like Air Elemental being faster than Sky Drake. At most I could see 5 Sky Drake, 6 Air Elemental. I know Sky Drake is a more expensive spell, but that doesn't mean it has to better at everything.

Are there 5 squares between the front lines at the start of combat? If so, 5 for Sky Drake and 6 for Air Elemental would give a crucial distinction between them, I agree with your suggestion. Speed 5 for Sky Drake probably wouldn't matter much at all in combat, except making them a little harder to outrun if you feel like it.

You can combine casting skill with a magic ranged attack. It would just take 3 mana/shot just like for heroes. I have no idea how hard a change that is to make, however, I just know that's how the Djinn in the 2.0 mod work. (not Catnip 2.0)

I know you can combine casting skill with ranged magic, but I don't think you can combine it with magic ammo. In the tests I did it drained both 3 mana AND lowered the ammo counter by 1. Do point out if I'm wrong, of course.

I forget to address this earlier. I don't believe we should do a flat 50/100% speed increase for summoned monsters. I instead believe we should match summoned monster role to normal unit role and then base movement on that. Now, in general that's already done in MoM baseline which is why my speed suggestions were mostly just a flat increase. However, what if we decide to change a monster's role? I believe at one point you suggested changing sprites to light melee units. At that point they're skirmishers, and their speed should be based on normal unit skirmishers (cav, wolf riders, etc.)

Yeah, if roles change the speed should match that. For the most part we won't be changing roles, but I see your point.