[SPOILERS] The Peaceful Centaur: a Study in Possibility

[Mardoc]

Dang, I was afraid of this when Maksim made a point of emphasizing the 'killing of living things' and 'destruction of all'; there may not be much food at all on this map. And there may be much greater incentives to scout to find the few and far between resources.

I don't have a better suggestion for the scouting; I'm half tempted to scout north instead with the warrior, except that it looks awfully icy up there.

It'll be a while before this is possible, but I'm already thinking in terms of the Genesis project and/or getting our hands on some Vitalize casters, somehow. Although I suppose an Agrarianism-Sanitation farm is still pretty decent, even on plains. And it's possible that there's a lot more good land than we can see.

Any idea what the map size is? That might affect how careful we want to be with placing our first city.

Still, I agree on this point - thanks Maksim!

And finally - gee, Irgy, a second mystery for me! Thanks! I'll figure out your evil Hyborem plots eventually, I'm sure, even if it's just by discovering how much pain you can dish out.

[Mardoc]

Also, now that we've had a chance to get away a bit from wall of text syndrome, I present: Another Wall of Text from our pre-game thoughts.

I'm ok with either defaults or a twist or two to make it more interesting for Selrahc et al. Obviously we don't want Compact Enforced or atheistic game or some such .

Ok.

I think you've pretty much nailed it - one major part of the question is whether we want to go for a conquest victory or something else. Actually, I think Clan might synergize well in addition, except that it relies on no one else racing for the Gate. We want to end up Spiritual, though!

Never thought of the clan. I can't see the merits to be honest, but interested to hear them.

I think the Luchiurp 'gold standard' is due to single player where the host civ is going to be useless anyway.

That makes sense. I never knew it was an established standard, but I'd believe it.

I think, all in all, I like the Bannor best for synergy, and Kuriotates best for getting Mercurians in play early. And Malakim - I'm not certain if that's due to the particular maps, or what, but they're out to a rabbit-quick start on both RB games they're in.

It's partly the maps. Malakim on Fractal or other standard civ maps aren't that good, Malakim on Erebus continents are usually awesome. It's a strange kind of imbalance really.

So yeah, that was basically a longwinded way to say yes, I like going 1 Bannor, 2 Kuriotates, 3 Malakim, but I'm fine with any of the above or putting that list in a different order.

Actually - a Empyrean Kuriotates/Order Angels could be a very strong option - let's go for that if we can.

Sounds like the order of Bannor and Kuriotates is the main decision then. I'm leaning further towards Kuriotates myself. One thing I forgot to mention, we can beeline (or just about beeline) Warhorses after getting Fanaticism and our religion

(s). Warhorses unlocks two Angel upgrades, as well as a Kuriotate UU and hero. Almost as synergistic as Fanaticism with Bannor (though not quite).

I'd have picked the other way around for those religions by the way:
* The Kuriotates have a chariot UU already, so Ratha are better off Mercurian
* Unyielding order benefits Kuriotates more than anyone. Although maybe Mercurian high priests can use it in Kuriotate cities anyway?

... ok that's my only reasons. What are your reasons for having them the way around you suggested though? Interested to know.

Never thought of the clan. I can't see the merits to be honest, but interested to hear them.

Oh, the merit to the clan is pretty much entirely that they're good at spamming units, and with Mercurians in play, a horde strategy can pay off because it results in lots of angels. I'm thinking of it not so much for any particular strength of the clan or synergy, more as a feeder civ for the Angels. But I agree the other choices are stronger.

Sounds like the order of Bannor and Kuriotates is the main decision then. I'm leaning further towards Kuriotates myself.

One thing I forgot to mention, we can beeline (or just about beeline) Warhorses after getting Fanaticism and our religion(s). Warhorses unlocks two Angel upgrades, as well as a Kuriotate UU and hero. Almost as synergistic as Fanaticism with Bannor (though not quite).

I'd have picked the other way around for those religions by the way:
* The Kuriotates have a chariot UU already, so Ratha are better off Mercurian
* Unyielding order benefits Kuriotates more than anyone. Although maybe Mercurian high priests can use it in Kuriotate cities anyway?

... ok that's my only reasons. What are your reasons for having them the way around you suggested though? Interested to know.

Thinking about it further, I see the Kurio advantages more strongly, and I'm willing to go with them preferentially. Honestly, being able to get that fast launch is huge, and you're right that having no debate on which civ gets new acquisitions will make life a lot easier for us.

For the religion split, essentially what I was thinking is that Kurios are inherently limited to 3-4 units/turn, depending on map size, but they're capable of putting a lot of hammers into those units. That means that Kurio army composition will tend to be weighted toward an elite force that isn't going to die much, which fits Empyrean much better than it fits Order.

Meanwhile, Mercurians might almost want to build some warriors for the express purpose of suiciding them to make angels. And the ability to give them an extra +1 Str from Bless means they're more likely to do something useful in the process. Add in the fact that all Mercurian living units become angels, while Kurio units only become angels if they had one of the personal good three religions first, which isn't likely to be all of them, so some efficiency would be lost there.

Honestly, unless we spread out our core cities a ton, I don't expect maintenance to affect the Kurios much at all, and using a national unit, tier 3 caster just for maintenance seems like a waste. Meanwhile, Basium will be spread out all over the place, especially since he's likely to be on more than one side of the Kurio empire, so Basilicas are a very handy idea for him.

This is thinking more long term, however, after the Mercurians have established a big enough empire to outproduce the Kurios, at least in units/turn if not also hammers/turn. That might be the same point at which we've essentially won, anyway. I find I'm much better at thinking long term, equilibrium, than I am at paying attention to the close stuff.

And on the debit side, well, one large possible advantage for playing the Mercurians is the ability to make a quick moving Raiders force without switching the Kurios out of Financial. If we're going to have Rathas, we probably want them to be Raiders as well to control the battlefield.

I guess what it comes down to is how we plan to specialize the forces; I'm still pretty much in the brainstorming stage here. We want some cannon fodder for the Angels, and that's probably better as Order than Empy; it'll just be a question of which civ is better for producing it.

Finally, one last concern that you may have already figured out - when we finish the Gate, are we able to promote a new settlement to city? And are we able to choose which settlement is promoted, or does the game do that automatically?

Especially on a small map, that could hurt if uncontrollable.

[Irgy]

And finally - gee, Irgy, a second mystery for me! Thanks! I'll figure out your evil Hyborem plots eventually, I'm sure, even if it's just by discovering how much pain you can dish out.

You do realise it's PBEM5 not PBEM3 that I requested not to read that bit, right? You're not in that game, so you're welcome to. Or are you ded-lurking someone in it?

I'm the official Hyborem reserve in PBEM5 is all.

[Mardoc]

You do realise it's PBEM5 not PBEM3 that I requested not to read that bit, right? You're not in that game, so you're welcome to. Or are you ded-lurking someone in it?

I'm the official Hyborem reserve in PBEM5 is all.

Yep, I'm dedlurking Tredje and the Clan.

[Irgy]

So, here it is. I tried to play it this morning, and did, but I didn't get the email out anyway. I shouldn't have rushed, because I've made a mistake already. See if you can think of it. There's an argument that I picked the wrong hill for the settler, but that's not it.

Anyway, this is what we can see.


Plains as far as the eye can see. Never seen such an awful start. Just hope everyone else's is as bad. The monotonicity of the terrain is bad for us, as with 3 rings normally you get enough of whichever type of tile you want. I wonder how "natural" the rest of the map is going to be.

Settling options are in place, or 2W to get sheep, or keep searching for something better.

[Serdoa]

No clue about that "mistake". But 2W won't get you the sheep in the BFC or am I wrong?

[Irgy]

Hmm you're right it won't. Well, looks like the map has forced me into in-place then, can't see a better alternative.

In the long-long term, cottages on plains for Kuriotates are quite good, as they eventually become 2 food. Although it takes forever. 60 turns. Not sure if it's 40 on quick (it ought to be). Still I'm thinking cottages are probably our best option now. Aristograrian farms aren't so good on plains.

[Mardoc]

So, here it is. I tried to play it this morning, and did, but I didn't get the email out anyway. I shouldn't have rushed, because I've made a mistake already. See if you can think of it.

Well, I can think of two possibilities, mutually exclusive. There's no research going, so we've lost a beaker. There's also no sign of switching civics; I'm not sure what the Kurios start in, but it's probably not Nationalism and that's where we probably want to be.

I'd say we want to settle and get started. I bet this is a Highlands map, so we're not going to do better. I agree that Aristocracy is a bad idea for plains, and we'll want a bunch of cotttages to turn into Enclaves, but I believe that 60 turns is on top of what it takes to get a town, so we will need another source of food in the meantime; I'd argue it still makes sense to go to Agrarianism for that.

[fire&ice]

Settling options are in place, or 2W to get sheep, or keep searching for something better.

Well 2W won't get you sheep but 3W gets you all 3 food resources

sheep cows and wheet

[Irgy]

Well, I can think of two possibilities, mutually exclusive. There's no research going, so we've lost a beaker.

I don't think that's actually true. I was under the impression research didn't progress until you had founded a city, but in either case I'm pretty sure the free beaker is removed in FFH.

There's also no sign of switching civics; I'm not sure what the Kurios start in, but it's probably not Nationalism and that's where we probably want to be.

See, I should have passed the save to you. That was exactly it. Not just is it not nationalism, it's pacifism.

I'd say we want to settle and get started. I bet this is a Highlands map, so we're not going to do better.

I'm leaning that way as well.

I agree that Aristocracy is a bad idea for plains, and we'll want a bunch of cotttages to turn into Enclaves, but I believe that 60 turns is on top of what it takes to get a town, so we will need another source of food in the meantime; I'd argue it still makes sense to go to Agrarianism for that.

Well, you're quite possibly right. An alternative is to simply use the resource food, but it won't grow us to our happy/health cap, which is wasting the Kuriotates' big starting advantage.