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Green as they come: Hiding Kneel plays the Ljosalfar [SPOILERS]

HidingKneel Wrote:I'm thinking that archers aren't so attractive, even with our dextrous trait. Bronze warriors are just as good on offense and almost as good on defense, cheaper to produce, and don't need an archery range.

But Gilden should not be ignored. Of the heroes belonging to civs in game, three come super late-game (Herne, Teutorix, Magnadine), one in the late mid-game (Maros), and only two come reasonable early (Gilden, Rantine). Rantine's basically a normal axeman with the heroic promotion. So Gilden is probably the strongest unit that anyone can field in the early game. We should definitely find some way to work that to our advantage.

Low Priority: Pick up basic worker techs, then chants, then
education and mysticism in some order, then hunting, then archery.

Pros: If "worker techs" includes mining, we get the double prereq bonus
towards archery (how much of a bonus is this, anyway? Is the discount enough to be worth thinking about?) This way we get our economy rolling early.

Cons: Gilden comes out too late to be of any use on offense. And if we're unlucky enough to be invaded, we'll really wish we had him sooner.

Thoughts?

This is where my theory comes into conflict with practical advice. Speaking to a few elf veterans, they all agree: The beeline must not be sacrificed. Bronze warriors, as you say, hold the line pretty well, but slow elves being slow, the Education -> WotF beeline is strictly needed to get up the elven economy in time. So my FFH knowledge is smoke. You're right, Gilden is a Dovello-equse gameplan, and who wants to play the Dovello? (Exception: Tight rush map...in which case, yeah, archery ho!)

March of the Trees is probably the better bet for safeguarding. If you do start next to the Hippus...um, hope they really hate their other neighbor(s)?
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.

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Commodore Wrote:March of the Trees is probably the better bet for safeguarding. If you do start next to the Hippus...um, hope they really hate their other neighbor(s)?

Well, March of the Trees is good for discouraging a full-scale invasion. But if the Hippus or Kuriotates decide to send horsemen/centaurs my way to pillage, I'm not going to want to pop the worldspell to kill a unit or two. I'll need some units of my own that can dislodge a choke, and Gilden would be pretty good for that (or possibly executing one of my own, though that might be a bad idea with 1-move units).

I guess, like everything else, we'll have to get the lay of the land before seeing what makes the most sense. Worker techs at the start in any case, to take advantage of the free worker. After that... we'll see what the scouts can tell us.
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If you're really going for Arendel of the Doviello, I'd think WotF and a settler would be more useful than Archery and Gilden...

Also, you're going to need to slot a period of Runes / Order / Empy after every Veil Ritualist pump if you plan on building Altar levels afterwards, since Leaves doesn't affect alignment.
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Mattimeo Wrote:Also, you're going to need to slot a period of Runes / Order / Empy after every Veil Ritualist pump if you plan on building Altar levels afterwards, since Leaves doesn't affect alignment.

Absolutely. I'm thinking I'll probably use Kilmorph for that, just because it's the cheapest of those techs to pick up. (I have a bad habit in SP games of trying to grab everything that sounds cool, which I'm going have to do my best to suppress.) Probably won't be more than one cycle of this, though. I

My vague plan at this point: beeline to leaves, stay there while researching midgame techs. At some point switching to Veil (possibly OO as well), build a nice supply of ritualists. Possibly staying long enough to grab the Grimoire, if it looks feasible and I can find something worthwhile to use it on.
Then a 5 turn stint of Kilmorph to turn out a stonewarden or two, then back to Leaves.
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[SIZE="5"]The Competition[/SIZE]

Following the grand tradition of spoiler threads that have come before, let's size up our opponents. Here's what we're up against:

Yell0w: Cardith Lorda of the Kuriotates.
The Kuriotates have "sprawling" as a civ trait. Which means they can have a very limited number of cities (2-5, depending on map size: not sure what that will work out to be in this game), but their cities can work an extra ring of tiles. They also get bonus sources of happiness, to help them build huge mega-cities. Altogether, it's a huge advantage and a huge disadvantage in one package. Whether it's more of an advantage or a disadvantage depends a lot on the map (and probably also on the player).

Cardith's traits are expansive and adaptive. His adaptive trait starts as philosophical, which is an especially good trait to have in the early game
(quick elder councils, and they can get a great sage up twice as fast as everyone else. Moreover, academies are particularly useful to them, since all of their commerce is concentrated in a small number of cities). Later on, Yell0w can switch that to something even better, like financial.
Expansive is rather lackluster for the Kuriotates. They only really need to build a small number of settlers, to found their mega-cities. After that, they can crank out lots of settlements, but in my experience those offer pretty marginal benefits, unless you need one to claim bronze or iron or something like that.

Succeeding with the Kuriotates definitely requires a different mindset than most civs. Though they can have giant cities with tons of production, they are limited in the number of things that they can build at a time. This can make it very difficult to compete militarily against larger empires. It also means that the Kuriotates don't get too much benefit from conquering the cities of their opponents (other than setting those opponents back). They're pretty much optimized to pursue cultural victories (unless you're playing on a tiny map, in which case they can't build a third city). On the other hand, they've got a lot of synergy with the mounted line, making them quite dangerous if they decide to go that route.

I have no idea how Yell0w will decide to go with the Kuriotates. It looks like he's fairly new to RB, having joined at roughly the same time that I did. Having looked at his spoiler thread in FFH XIX, I'll say he's made some decisions that aren't the ones I would have made :neenernee.

Color-coded threat level assessment: Mottled Cucumber

Weezel: Varn Gosam of the Malakim.

Looking at leader traits alone, Varn is definitely the best leader in the game. He starts with the same traits as Arendel: spiritual and creative. However, like Cardith, he's adaptive: later in the game, he can swap that creative trait for anything he likes. Creative is a nice trait to have early on, but drops off substantially in usefulness once you have another way to generate culture (like a state religion). At that point, Varn can choose to be financial instead.

Of course, there's more to a civ than just the leader's traits. In an unrestricted leaders game, Varn would be my first pick every time. But he leads the Malakim, who are pretty mediocre apart from their leader.
They get bonus commerce for working desert tiles, which is pretty much useless unless those desert tiles are also floodplains. (They can really thrive if they start with a lot of floodplains, though.) They also get some bonuses for pursuing the divine path, including a worldspell which can produce a bunch of free priests of their state religion. Combine that with Varn's spiritual trait, and the Malakim are easily the best civ in the game if you want to go the divine route.

As for Weezel as a player, I don't have much to go on. Like me, he's played as lot of FFH in SP, but not in MP. With the adaptive and spiritual traits, playing as Varn gives you a lot of flexibility, and I have no idea what route he'll decide to go. Based on the title of his spoiler thread, I'd guess that he's thinking about going with the "canonical" approach to the Malakim: going for the Empyrean and Chalid. We'll have to see.

Color-coded Threat Level Assessment: Atomic Tangerine

Tholal: Arturus Thorne of the Khazad.

I actually typed Kandros Fir there at first, and corrected it when looking back at the main thread. Then I rubbed my eyes and checked again, but it looks like he means it. Arturus is a strange choice: a mediocre leader of a civ that also has one of the top tier leaders. His traits are organized, industrious, and ingenious. Organized is a pretty good trait: it cuts down on expenses,
gives courthouses and lighthouses at half price, and lets you build command posts (which are very nice buildings). Ingenious is a nice perk, giving you cheap upgrades on your troops. But industrious is sort of weak: maybe he plans on chasing wonders with it? We'll have to see. Anyways, I'm certainly glad he chose Arturus over Kandros; one fewer financial leader that I'll need to keep up with.

The Khazad are fairly strong civ overall. Their special mechanic is their dwarven vaults. These give bonuses and penalties depending on how much gold you have on hand (which is divided by the number of cities you control).
Early on, when your vaults are empty or near empty, they cause unhappiness. But once you fill them up, you get some hefty bonuses to happiness and production. All in all, this slows down their early game a bit (both due to the unhappiness and giving them a disincentive to pursue rapid expansion), but makes them a real powerhouse later on.

Because of their vault mechanic, the Khazad are strongly inclined to pursue bonuses to gold production. I'd be surprised if they don't beeline the Runes of Kilmorph. But then again, Tholal has already surprised me with his choice, so who knows?

As for the player: it looks like Tholal has been around for a while, and this is not his first PBEM. He's also designed a FFH mod which substantially improves the AI (which is what I usually play against in the SP game). So it's safe to say that he knows the ins-and-outs of the game pretty well.

Color-coded threat level assessment: Light Salmon

Ellimist: Jonas Endain of the Clan of Embers.

Jonas's traits are spiritual, expansive, and barbarian. The barbarian
trait really changes the way he plays the game. He's at peace with the barbarians (at least initially), and so doesn't have to worry about them in the early game.

The Clan gets a huge advantage in the form of warrens: a Clan-only building available fairly early (at Masonry) which lets him build two units at once. If I recall correctly, this works with settlers and workers. That means that with the expansive trait, he's four times faster at building settlers than everyone else. This allows the orcs to expand like cockroaches over the land. And thanks to their barbarian trait, they don't have to worry too much about defending the cities they build (at least from barbarians).

But it's not all bad. The barbarian trait also comes with a science penalty. In addition, it means they can't ever build libraries to boost the science production in their key cities. This means they are generally slow to tech. But the sheer numbers they can put out makes them dangerous even at low levels of technology. If they get to iron working, they can be near unstoppable: with iron weapons, their champion replacement clocks in at a base strength of ten.

As for the player: it looks like Ellimist is fairly experienced at MP FFH. I see that he managed to win FFH PBEM IX playing as Charadon (who is surely the weakest leader in the game by far). So he clearly knows what he's doing.

Color-coded threat level assessment: Mustard Brown

Kyan: Rhoanna of the Hippus.

I'd say this is the strongest leader/civ combination on the board for this game. First off, she's the only financial leader in the game (at least at the start; I'm sure it will be an adaptive pick), which gives her a solid economic advantage. But she's also one of the best rushers in the game. The Hippus worldspell, Warcry, is fantastic. It gives each of their units a bonus point to strength and movement (which slowly wears off randomly over time). This is huge in the early game. It makes them even better at rushing than the Doviello: crank out a few warriors, locate opponent, then pop the worldspell to send a couple of Lucian-equivalents in their direction. Of course, that's probably not the optimal time to use the worldspell. But they have a strong incentive to use it early: an extra point of strength is huge in the early game, and slowly fades to irrelevance as the game goes on.

The other thing that the Hippus have going for them is their horselord trait: it gives all of their mounted units an extra point of movement, and a bonus to withdrawal rate. This means that horsemen constructed by the Hippus start with four points of movement (which can be further boosted by warcry, haste, or choosing the appropriate promotions). This makes them great at raiding and pillaging. They can also get their horsemen up to 95% withdrawal by taking all of the flanking promotions. This lets them fight lots of risky battles, which leads to lots of experience and lots more promotions. So they tend to have a solid military. Which they can support with their solid economy. Did I mention that this is the strongest leader/civ combination on the board?

As for Kyan, I gather from Commodore's warnings in the main thread that he's a pretty experienced civ player. He claims not to be very knowledgable about FFH, but I didn't get that sense by reading his FFH PBEM VII thread. In any case, it looks like he'll have no shortage of good advice: so far, his spoiler thread has more posts than all of the others combined.

I'd say it's very likely that someone will be on the receiving end of a warcry-rush in this game. Let's just hope it isn't us.

Color-coded threat level assessment: Deadly nightshade.
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Hiding Kneel, here's your land:
[Image: PBEMXX%20HidingKneel%20T0.JPG]
EitB 25 - Perpentach
Occasional mapmaker

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And we're off!

Let's see what we've got here. Between coasts and mountains, so it seems like wherever we settle we're not going to be able to work the whole BFC.
There are two obvious capital sites: the plains hill north of the dye, and the plains hill 2E of that. Both of those pick up 2 commerce resources we can work after researching calendar, plus corn and a floodplains. Both have fresh water and three peaks in the BFC. If we settle 1N of the dye, we've also got a lake in the BFC, which we can't really develop later (also, can cultists use those for tsunami?) The other main difference is that we've got some grasslands next to that lake that we can farm for early food. I'm not sure how big a deal that is; I think between the floodplains and the corn, we should have plenty of food, and won't want to work tiles that give no commerce/production.

We don't have a complete visual on the eastern site, so there might be more peaks and/or resources there. I guess we'll send a scout (or settler, if they've got the extra visibility bonus) to check that out before making the decision.

So, early decisions: I think that agriculture/calendar is a no brainer for starting techs. Since we start with a worker, first build will be a warrior
(not sure if Mardoc will have given me one, seeing as the Ljosalfar usually start with a pair of scouts). As for the shade: with two calendar resources in the BFC of the capital, I'm not sure that commerce will our early bottleneck. Hence I'm leaning toward the engineer.

Thoughts? Anything I'm missing, here?
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HidingKneel Wrote:(also, can cultists use those for tsunami?)
Yes.
Quote: the Ljosalfar usually start with a pair of scouts)
Did this time, too.
EitB 25 - Perpentach
Occasional mapmaker

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HidingKneel Wrote:And we're off!

Let's see what we've got here. Between coasts and mountains, so it seems like wherever we settle we're not going to be able to work the whole BFC.
There are two obvious capital sites: the plains hill north of the dye, and the plains hill 2E of that. Both of those pick up 2 commerce resources we can work after researching calendar, plus corn and a floodplains. Both have fresh water and three peaks in the BFC. If we settle 1N of the dye, we've also got a lake in the BFC, which we can't really develop later (also, can cultists use those for tsunami?) The other main difference is that we've got some grasslands next to that lake that we can farm for early food. I'm not sure how big a deal that is; I think between the floodplains and the corn, we should have plenty of food, and won't want to work tiles that give no commerce/production.

We don't have a complete visual on the eastern site, so there might be more peaks and/or resources there. I guess we'll send a scout (or settler, if they've got the extra visibility bonus) to check that out before making the decision.

So, early decisions: I think that agriculture/calendar is a no brainer for starting techs. Since we start with a worker, first build will be a warrior
(not sure if Mardoc will have given me one, seeing as the Ljosalfar usually start with a pair of scouts). As for the shade: with two calendar resources in the BFC of the capital, I'm not sure that commerce will our early bottleneck. Hence I'm leaning toward the engineer.

Thoughts? Anything I'm missing, here?

Dedlurker checking in. Either plains hill looks good, I like the western one a good deal better baring finding something ugly in the fog. Maybe second city south along the coast for the rest of the floodplains/ability to expand islandward for Frydwell and IC trade routes?

Unless it works differently in FFH, you have one full turn to settle and get a little gold before scouts (or the shade frown ) start striking. Engineer is a big yeah, as this land calls for lots of early workers and settlers to maximize things. Nice to be an elf in all this woodland. Is this a mirrored map?
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.

I write RPG adventures, and blog about it, check it out.
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So, I set up a model and simmed out a few openings. The results: my intuition was all wrong.

First, I think for servicing two cities, a single worker isn't going to cut it. I'm now thinking of going worker first in both of them, then building garrisons after that. After all, what could possibly go wrong? (*)

I ran some tests with the merchant, sage, and engineer. I think the engineer gave the weakest openings. Compare engineer vs. merchant. Since the expensive early builds are workers and settlers, the extra food from the merchant adds a hammer. Also, since we'll have a second city immediately, we'll have upkeep costs to pay, so a merchant also adds two beakers right off the bat. Against that, the engineer gives two more hammers and one more beaker. Those hammers can shave two turns off of the first worker build, but that gets the worker out before agriculture comes in, so it doesn't buy us much. After that, the extra hammers from the engineer let us pump out warriors faster while we grow. But I think we're going to have no problems getting all the warriors we want to pay upkeep for; I'd prefer to have the extra food to reach the happy cap quicker, when we can start pumping out settlers and additional workers. At that point, we ought to have enough food and production to make the extra two hammers less of a big deal. We end up in pretty much the same place at about the same time, only with the merchant we'll have an event fund and with the engineer we won't.

The sage did better, helping us get through the early techs quicker (so our cities can start benefitting from agrarianism sooner), and landing mysticism
shortly after turn 20 (assuming we go mysticism before education). This was about 5 turns earlier than the merchant run, but again without an event fund. The sage also resulted in a bit of inefficiency: got calendar earlier, but couldn't take full advantage of it because I was still building farms.

I didn't run anything past turn 30, but I'd imagine that the merchant starts to look even better at that point, due to the +50% gold from God King. So I'm leaning now towards starting with a merchant, as you suggested earlier.

The other thing I'm contemplating is settling the capital north of the floodplains, rather than on the plains hill. This seems to give a faster opening: more food to get to the happy cap quickly, and then to churn out settlers and workers. How suboptimal does it look to you? It misses the extra hammer (though we can make that up later, once we mine the hills) and the defensive bonus of settling on a hill. It's also a weaker capital in the long term since I can't bloom the floodplains. (Then again, I can't bloom that lake, either).

(*) I can think of several things which might go wrong.
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