Bunbunmaru News Reports In! (Kuro Spoiler Thread)

[Serdoa]

Your start:

[Kuro]

Seven picked Zulu? WTF is this.

Sorry I have not had time to get up my leader round-up, will try to do so before it comes to my pick, I've just gotten a bit busy the past few days and am just now getting un-busy (Though not too busy to play turns!)

[Kuro]

Seven picked Zulu? WTF is this.

Sorry I have not had time to get up my leader round-up, will try to do so before it comes to my pick, I've just gotten a bit busy the past few days and am just now getting un-busy (Though not too busy to play turns!)

Actually, possible idea: If he ALSO has a Agriculture + Ivory or some other Hunting resource start, only the Zulu and Persians begin with Agriculture + Hunting, so he may have felt the ability to have those techs (Either to start by ignoring other food via Mining + BW or some other purpose) was worth getting a worse leader.

[Kuro]

Editorial

Alright, so: Leaders and civs. Let's go through this, first by discussing the traits and how I feel about them, then more and...stuff.

First off, banned for this are: India, Inca, Pacal and Willem. I dunno why Sury isn't banned, given he has 2 of the 3 power trio traits, but I guess people don't see him as usually banned. I always figured banning the obvious leaders meant banning him...but I really don't give a crap. It does mean SevenSpirits/Krill will likely get him, though. (Note: I am not sure Sury isn't banned, but last I saw/remember he was not)

Financial:

Best trait in the game. +1 commerce is very powerful at any point in the game and probably gets you more pure power than any other trait and it works well with pretty much any trait. However, the two best Financial leaders are banned, so this is something to keep in mind, though unless you get Sury you can't get 2 of the power traits anyway...and like hell Sury falls to #9. There's not much to say about financial, as what is good about it is pretty self-evident.

Notable Leaders:

- Mansa Musa (Financial/Spiritual)

I like Mansa. Spiritual can be very powerful when leveraged well, not counting the fact that it cuts down on anarchy turns, and Financial is of course very powerful. The downside to this combination is that you don't really get anything like Expansive or Industrious that gives you a straight-up active bonus, both Financial and Spiritual are a bit passive, so they're a bit harder to leverage. I might not have the ability to manage civics well enough to make the full use of it, though I think I can manage Pacifism stuff and the like.

- Huanya Capac (Financial/Industrious)

This one is pretty simple. Financial gets you to the wonder techs faster, Industrious helps you build them faster, making it one of the better trait combos for wonderwhoring. I'm a bit more of an expansion type than a wonder type, but I do like the idea...it should be noted that this is better for mid-game wonderwhoring than early game, though: You want Expansive for that. Not my favorite combo, but workable.

- Hannibal (Financial/Charismatic)

Probably like him over Huanya, as Charismatic is not nearly as bad as people think: +1 happiness is great for early game whipping and the XP reduction can be very valuable. It's up there with Mansa in terms of who I'd pick Financial-wise.

- Ragnar (Financial/Aggressive)

You don't usually want Aggressive, but Ragnar is one of the better combinations with Rome or the Zulu: Rome if you want to just crush someone with Praetorians, though you'd really want to have less people for that, or the Zulu for a mix of power and economy, thanks to cheap Ikhandas in the early middlegame. Probably not someone I'd choose. (In-house edit: With the Zulu gone, Ragnar is probably off the table)

- Elizabeth (Financial/Philosophical)

Yes, pretty much every Financial leader is notable, but Elizabeth's ability to dual Financial with a quick Great Scientist gives her a nice science option...but you get basically no boost outside of the +1 and GPP, with only a University sped up, so you lose out early game. I'd rather have Huanya, Hannibal or Mansa than her. (Huanya also gets only one sped building, but Forges are much more useful and earlier)

- Darius I (Financial/Organized):

Brings in lots of cash, gets cheaper civics and some good cheaper buildings, not the best Financial leader but he can work well.

- Victoria (Financial/Imperialistic)

Just wanted to bring it up because of the synergy between making more money to support an empire based on expanding, but there's better stuff for both Imperialistic and Financial.

Creative:

Personally, Creative barely edges out Expansive for me, although I imagine math dictates Expansive as being better, but it's all the little things that make Creative good to me. You get a lot more freedom in city placement thanks to not needing monuments, which helps both early and mid game, and helps a city grow...albeit indirectly. Faster Libraries are also great, as they help get an earlier Great Scientist. It's also one of the few traits that can let you totally ignore a tech line for quite some time, as religion has less value (You pretty much want it if you have a low happy cap, since you need to go up to Monotheism or Priesthood for Monarchy).

Overall, while Creative doesn't offer the raw numbers of Expansive whipping, I feel the city placement flexibility, resources saved on Monuments (which itself does bootstrap cities some) and cheap libraries make it really good. It's primary weakness is that it loses power as the game goes on, although it still has a little use, especially in conquering cities or holding on to land.

- Suryavarman II (Creative/Expansive):

Despite Pacal (Financial/Expansive) and Willem (Financial/Creative) being banned, Sury's lack of financial apparently makes him available. If I had the first pick, we wouldn't need a leader discussion, because we'd pick sury. With SevenSpirits/Krill getting first pick, we can be very sure that they'll pick Sury, which is kinda scary given they have the best players I think (We all know Krill is really good, IIRC SevenSpirits has also been really good?). Creative/Expansive is great for getting cities started and cuts down on necessary builds (A cultural building and a Granary). It also has one of the best one-two building punches with Granary-Library.

- Louis XIV (Creative/Industrious):

Industrious is a pretty nice trait and Library + Forge is one of the better cheap building combos, due to the fact that both are very common builds in multiple cities. But aside from that, both the boosts are a bit passive and Industrious can be quite iffy depending on how many others have it, plus deciding what wonders to go after. Louis XIV will largely depend on how many Industrious leaders go before us.

- Zara Yaqob (Creative/Organized):

Zara has a very fun thing in that he gets THE most cheap buildings of any leader: Library, Theatre, Colosseum, Lighthouse, Factory and Courthouse. That's six cheap buildings! It's a pretty nice deal for him, Lighthouses and Courthouses also tend to be pretty common, especially since we know this map will have enough shoreline to build Lighthouses. -50% Civic Upkeep is pretty good, but I am pretty sure at Monarchy it's saving isn't too much. All the cheap buildings make it a bit more active than Louis, although your bonuses are still largely behind-the-scenes leveraged things.

- Catherine (Creative/Imperialistic)

Cathy is one of my favorite creative leaders, as I feel Imperialistic is a bit undervalued and the traits have great synergy together, Imperialistic helping you spit out cities (Though it is no Sury) and Creative helping you place them. Great General emergence doesn't look like much, but it can make an early war pretty profitable and a mid-game Knight strike can be invaluable...or an early game strike can lead into Knights. In general, there's great synergy here and it's most active. Cathy or Zara is my top non-Sury pick.

- Hatshepsut (Creative/Spiritual)

Creative and Spiritual are a bit of a fun combo for passive fun, as Creative helps you in a lot of little ways and Spiritual helps you both in lessening revolt times and later shenanigans with Caste System, Pacifism and the like. However, Creative does take away the possibility of popping over to Caste for 5T to pop borders, then pop off it. Below Cathy/Zara.

Expansive:

The final trait, Expansive, is usually the 2nd best trait, but I tend to prefer playing Creative over Expansive most of the time. Still, nobody can deny that the incredible power of cheap Workers and cheap Granaries provides an insane boost to the early game, since Granaries and Workers are two things no early build can go without. Well, unless it's a varient game or something (Hey, there's a fun idea: Let's do varient game multiplayer games!). Expansive tends to shoot to 2nd and near Financial when India and the Inca are unbanned, though...but they ain't, so haha suck it!

Bismarck (Expansive/Industrious):

Bismarck is always a joy to play with his combination of a fast food building and a fast Forge, plus his combination means, IIRC, that he can get out Stonehenge before anyone else (Due to Industrious bonus + faster Worker production), if we wanted to add faux-Creative in. He's probably the best at actually building wonders due to his ability to generate many workers (chops!) and get the Industrious boost.

Isabella (Expansive/Spiritual):

Spiritual goes well with most things, Expansive is no exception...but the ability to micro traits along with micro-ing Workers makes for some silly things you can do (Double-switch to Bureau + Organized Religion for free when many Worker chops come in for massive production boost? The usual Pacifism + Caste, etc). Might not be my favorite choice, but pretty big nonetheless. Will most likely be gone before us anyway.

Joao II (Expansive/Imperialistic):

Joao II is the ultimate expander, but I don't feel like playing him just after PB11, plus you must be Joao II of Inca to truly feel his might.

Mehmed II (Expansive/Organized):

Mehmed gets 5 cheap buildings, which is nice, in addition to Expansive and Organized working surprisingly well together, plus we can pair up Mehmed with a civilization that has a unique COurthouse for fun shenanigans (With the start, the Aztecs could be a real possibility with this, for half-cost Sacrifical Altars combined with Expansive Workers). He's someone who could realistically fall to us that we could take.

Washington (Expansive/Charismatic):

Not the best option, but I just wanted to say I always enjoyed the +2 Health/+1 Happy bonus.

Suryvaryman:

Discussed.

Industrious:

On a map with no Stone or Marble, the power of Industrious significantly increases, so since that is the case here...Industrious also gains power if less Industrious civs are in the game, so we should adjust it's value based on who picks in front of us, given our spot. Cheap wonders are not to be under-estimated and Oracle to MC to cheap Forges is a potent play. Cheap Forges in particular are nice due to their normal expensiveness when you want them in a lot of places.

Louis XIV:

Discussed.

Bismarck:

Discussed.

Huanya Capac:

Discussed.

Ramesses II (Spiritual/Industrious):

This isn't the most potent combination, but it can make great work of a Pyramid build by combining Spiritual with the ability to pop in and out of Representation (Pop into it when Pacifism/Caste and default when not doing much else), Universal Suffrage (With cottage heavy to provide a production boost or, when mid-game or Great Merchant (farm?), pop into it to finish something key with money) and even Police State (A Police State + Theocracy + Vassalge combo for 5T or so can help bolster military). It also gets Cheap Forges, of course. Ramesses II isn't the most powerful combo, but I will admit he is one I feel like trying a little.

De Gaulle (Industrious/Charismatic):

You basically pick this either going for Stonehenge or to fake out going for Stonehenge and go for the Oracle while using the happy boost. Either way, I don't really feel like either of those and De Gaulle's power is a bit iffy, so yeah.

Augustus Caeser (Industrious/Imperialistic):

Augustus is the only trait pair in the game that can get a 50% production bonus on two things that are not unique buildings: 50% wonders and 50% Settlers. Still, he isn't particularly powerful, and we have other leaders to use.

Spiritual:

Spiritual is a trait that has fluctuating power, as it gets more potent the better the player using it is. Unfortunately, I am not all that good, so that means it's a little lower value to me because I am unable to leverage it properly. But the ability to not only gain turns directly by not needing to waste them on civic changes combined with the ability to micro things to set up great plays with things like Pacifism and Org Religion chops and the like. It's a very fun trait and pretty powerful (It and Industrious switch #4 power based on the map and player, I'd say).

I've already discussed all he realistically worthwhile Spiritual leaders to discuss, so let's move on.

Imperialistic:

Imperialistic is a trait I feel is a bit underrated, as the 50% Settler boost is truly quite significant and the Great General emergance can be a lot stronger than anticipated, especially if you do some early or HA-level conquest to prep some high power Knights, Curassiers and so on later. The key is that you can't crash yourself economically, a difficult task.

Cyrus (Imperialistic/Charismatic):

Cyrus is, to me, actually a really fun combination, as Imperialistic + Charismatic allows not only a strong whip by expanding to many whippable cities with a higher happy cap to whip away, but it also allows you to utilize Charismatic + Great Generals to great effect, making them a fun combination with the Mongol horde for Gers. Cyrus is another mid-carder leader who I enjoy playing. Aside from him, I have basically covered every other worthwhile Imperialistic combo.

Organized:

Organized is actually a pretty good trait, especially given we're apparently on a Torodial map, and Mehmed or Zara could be pretty potent on this map. It's collection of unique buildings makes it good and -50% Civic cost isn't bad...they're a good cost saver, just not a game changer, though if this was Monarch + Torodial instead of Prince they'd shoot up in power. Given Torodial, pairing up Organized with a Courthouse unique building could be worth it. I've discussed pretty much all the worthwhile/relevant Organized leaders (Spritual/Organized works, but if so many Organized leaders are gone that we are picking that then there will assuredly be better options with other traits).

Charismatic:

Also a bit underrated, the happiness tends to only look worse because we get too much security in happiness resources and because I don't think people always consider how it helps whipping, but not something we're likely to be going after, unless we go for Hannibal or Cyrus. I continue to be amused that it isn't with Creative because of Stonehenge.

Aggressive:

Actually a decent trait with some good plays, I like to pair Aggressive with the Zulu...but given that the Zulu are taken, Aggressive is probably not happenin' this game, and Ragnar or Shaka dominate Aggressive, with the exception of...

Protective:

Protective is useless and pretty much should never be picked, but there is one thing I always wanted to try with it: Tokugawa of France! Combat I, City Garrison I, Drill I 2-move Musketeers (Draftable!), with possible promotions up the wazoo, always seemed insanely fun to me. Not going to be picked this time, but I will find the combo one day...

And yes, I got a bit short at the end, but we're not picking leaders from those traits most likely and I cut this too close to choosing time. My Top 5 of Leaders We Could Actually Get In No Particular Order is something like:

Zara Yaqob (Cre/Org), Mehmed II (Exp/Org), Catherine (Cre/Imp), Ramesses II (Spi/Ind), Cyrus (Imp/Cha), with Tokugawa, Hatshepsut and Louis XIV draggong outside and probably drinking.

[WilliamLP]

A letter to the editor, or something.

Seven picked Zulu? WTF is this.
...
Actually, possible idea: If he ALSO has a Agriculture + Ivory or some other Hunting resource start, only the Zulu and Persians begin with Agriculture + Hunting, so he may have felt the ability to have those techs (Either to start by ignoring other food via Mining + BW or some other purpose) was worth getting a worse leader.

Zulu is a shocking first pick! (Krill actually needed to say it wasn't a joke.) I think you're right on the techs. Starting with Agri + Hunting also gives you the +40% bonus on Animal Husbandry, and maybe they have a heavy animal start. Also maybe they want to play a game where they aggressively grab a lot of land early, and can use the Ikhanda to offset the cost. And because they'll want an Aggressive leader for cheap barracks, a decent one may be available. Like maybe Hammurabi (Aggr / Org). Zulu is kind of unique in that it makes Aggr an economic trait.

Of note is that you basically have 8th pick of leaders now.

On your start, I'd sim it a lot but I'm pretty sure I'd want to settle on one of those plains hills, just for the faster worker. In fact settling 1 east and working the elephant as EXP you'd have an unbelievable 9 turn worker! Or 10 turns without EXP. This is rare and fantastic.

I dunno why Sury isn't banned, given he has 2 of the 3 power trio traits, but I guess people don't see him as usually banned.

I don't think he's the best leader at all, so I wouldn't ban him. His late game is actually quite weak, both traits are nearly dead when all land is locked up. (Though CRE may swing a close culture war.) He forces you to try and win the land grab, but then you have to deal with the maintenance costs and there's nothing much to prevent you from stagnating at the awkward point where you need Currency + CoL. I'd take Darius or Elizabeth before him.

Financial:

Best trait in the game. +1 commerce is very powerful at any point in the game and probably gets you more pure power than any other trait and it works well with pretty much any trait. However, the two best Financial leaders are banned, so this is something to keep in mind, though unless you get Sury you can't get 2 of the power traits anyway...and like hell Sury falls to #9. There's not much to say about financial, as what is good about it is pretty self-evident.

Yeah, it's hard to conclude anything but that FIN is by far the best trait in BTS, looking at the numbers. Imagine a late game empire, and how many tiles you have that are +2 commerce or more. It will easily be more than 100, if not 200. And that commerce is being boosted by Libraries, Bureau, etc. FIN changes the math in the early game: coast is 50% better, so are river cottages. It changes coast from something you shouldn't bother with to something very useful. Seafood and lake cities become much more powerful and pay for themselves earlier.

- Mansa Musa (Financial/Spiritual)

I like Mansa. Spiritual can be very powerful when leveraged well, not counting the fact that it cuts down on anarchy turns, and Financial is of course very powerful. The downside to this combination is that you don't really get anything like Expansive or Industrious that gives you a straight-up active bonus, both Financial and Spiritual are a bit passive, so they're a bit harder to leverage. I might not have the ability to manage civics well enough to make the full use of it, though I think I can manage Pacifism stuff and the like.

Yeah, everyone likes Mansa, and I'd be shocked if he goes to #9. I don't think I know how to make really good use of SPI either. Switching to Caste and back for border pops and great people is nice though. So is switching to military civics (Theocracy, Vassalage) for bursts of unit production. Also if you could get the Monk wonders: Apostolic Palace / U of S / Spiral Minaret, the cheap temples become amazing.

- Huanya Capac (Financial/Industrious)

This one is pretty simple. Financial gets you to the wonder techs faster, Industrious helps you build them faster, making it one of the better trait combos for wonderwhoring. I'm a bit more of an expansion type than a wonder type, but I do like the idea...it should be noted that this is better for mid-game wonderwhoring than early game, though: You want Expansive for that. Not my favorite combo, but workable.

Yeah, I agree. It scales down with the number of people in the game, and the number of people with IND. And you don't have Stone or Marble in sight, which could change things.

- Hannibal (Financial/Charismatic)

Probably like him over Huanya, as Charismatic is not nearly as bad as people think: +1 happiness is great for early game whipping and the XP reduction can be very valuable. It's up there with Mansa in terms of who I'd pick Financial-wise.

Of note is you have at least one extra happiness already, so that might make CHA less necessary than otherwise. But yeah, I think CHA is a little underrated too.

- Ragnar (Financial/Aggressive)

You don't usually want Aggressive, but Ragnar is one of the better combinations with Rome or the Zulu: Rome if you want to just crush someone with Praetorians, though you'd really want to have less people for that, or the Zulu for a mix of power and economy, thanks to cheap Ikhandas in the early middlegame. Probably not someone I'd choose. (In-house edit: With the Zulu gone, Ragnar is probably off the table)

Yeah. If you're close to a warmonger, the C1 axes are a big deal though. They get 68% odds on a normal axe, and with a barracks (cheap!) you can get shock axes out of the gate. If you are able to just peacefully expand though, Aggr is a wasted trait though. I wouldn't want it, though if Ragnar were the only Fin leader at #8 it's worth thought.

- Elizabeth (Financial/Philosophical)

Yes, pretty much every Financial leader is notable, but Elizabeth's ability to dual Financial with a quick Great Scientist gives her a nice science option...but you get basically no boost outside of the +1 and GPP, with only a University sped up, so you lose out early game. I'd rather have Huanya, Hannibal or Mansa than her. (Huanya also gets only one sped building, but Forges are much more useful and earlier)

I've never used great people well, but it's really, really worth doing the math:

A scientist gives 1500 beakers, plus twice your current population. That can easily be 2000. And you get to use all 2000 of those beakers when you're bulbing techs like Education, Printing Press, Chemistry, etc.

Now suppose you're building your 4th GP. This means it takes 400 gpp to get 2000 beakers. So the 3GPP for a scientist are worth 15 beakers per turn, plus the 2 for the scientist itself! There are caveats - you are limited in the techs you can bulb and it's a long term investment with no benefit until the gp pops. But... note that PHI doubles this, and in this situation the scientist can be worth over 30 beakers per turn! No tile can match this, even river towns with Bureau and Oxford and everything else.

A shrine can be nice. Merchants, too, can produce a lot of gold, which works out really well in the math. Golden ages are worth a lot for all of commerce, hammers, and even more GP's. I've learned recently that if you're not building a lot of great people, you're throwing away a massive advantage in the mid game.

To go with this style it takes cities with massive food output - 5-6 food resources in a city is not too many! Unfortunately it doesn't look like you'll have an overpowered food capital.

- Darius I (Financial/Organized):

Brings in lots of cash, gets cheaper civics and some good cheaper buildings, not the best Financial leader but he can work well.

I think he's really good, but really could use something in the early game besides cheap lighthouses. Still I'd snap him up at #8. Civic upkeep is a decent amount of money saved in the later game, but it's still no Financial.

- Victoria (Financial/Imperialistic)

Just wanted to bring it up because of the synergy between making more money to support an empire based on expanding, but there's better stuff for both Imperialistic and Financial.

Maybe, though I'd disagree that there's a better IMP leader.

Creative:

Personally, Creative barely edges out Expansive for me, although I imagine math dictates Expansive as being better, but it's all the little things that make Creative good to me. You get a lot more freedom in city placement thanks to not needing monuments, which helps both early and mid game, and helps a city grow...albeit indirectly. Faster Libraries are also great, as they help get an earlier Great Scientist. It's also one of the few traits that can let you totally ignore a tech line for quite some time, as religion has less value (You pretty much want it if you have a low happy cap, since you need to go up to Monotheism or Priesthood for Monarchy).

It's a good point about the techs.

- Suryavarman II (Creative/Expansive):

Despite Pacal (Financial/Expansive) and Willem (Financial/Creative) being banned, Sury's lack of financial apparently makes him available. If I had the first pick, we wouldn't need a leader discussion, because we'd pick sury. With SevenSpirits/Krill getting first pick, we can be very sure that they'll pick Sury, which is kinda scary given they have the best players I think (We all know Krill is really good, IIRC SevenSpirits has also been really good?). Creative/Expansive is great for getting cities started and cuts down on necessary builds (A cultural building and a Granary). It also has one of the best one-two building punches with Granary-Library.

Again, like Aggressive Rome, he's got one trick, and one time to shine. (And it's a really good trick.) He either will or won't.

- Louis XIV (Creative/Industrious):

Industrious is a pretty nice trait and Library + Forge is one of the better cheap building combos, due to the fact that both are very common builds in multiple cities. But aside from that, both the boosts are a bit passive and Industrious can be quite iffy depending on how many others have it, plus deciding what wonders to go after. Louis XIV will largely depend on how many Industrious leaders go before us.

Personally I can't imagine picking Louis with this start.

- Zara Yaqob (Creative/Organized):

Zara has a very fun thing in that he gets THE most cheap buildings of any leader: Library, Theatre, Colosseum, Lighthouse, Factory and Courthouse. That's six cheap buildings! It's a pretty nice deal for him, Lighthouses and Courthouses also tend to be pretty common, especially since we know this map will have enough shoreline to build Lighthouses. -50% Civic Upkeep is pretty good, but I am pretty sure at Monarchy it's saving isn't too much. All the cheap buildings make it a bit more active than Louis, although your bonuses are still largely behind-the-scenes leveraged things.

I think Zara would be a fine pick for the style you want.

- Catherine (Creative/Imperialistic)

Cathy is one of my favorite creative leaders, as I feel Imperialistic is a bit undervalued and the traits have great synergy together, Imperialistic helping you spit out cities (Though it is no Sury) and Creative helping you place them. Great General emergence doesn't look like much, but it can make an early war pretty profitable and a mid-game Knight strike can be invaluable...or an early game strike can lead into Knights. In general, there's great synergy here and it's most active. Cathy or Zara is my top non-Sury pick.

I agree the GG emergence isn't bad. I don't like how quickly this leader would stagnate and run out of gas in tech though. I really believe teching is king in a no tech trading game.

- Hatshepsut (Creative/Spiritual)

Creative and Spiritual are a bit of a fun combo for passive fun, as Creative helps you in a lot of little ways and Spiritual helps you both in lessening revolt times and later shenanigans with Caste System, Pacifism and the like. However, Creative does take away the possibility of popping over to Caste for 5T to pop borders, then pop off it. Below Cathy/Zara.

Yeah, Hatty would own any culture wars automatically with CRE and cheap Temples and Libraries. Still I'm not sold on her.

Expansive:

The final trait, Expansive, is usually the 2nd best trait, but I tend to prefer playing Creative over Expansive most of the time. Still, nobody can deny that the incredible power of cheap Workers and cheap Granaries provides an insane boost to the early game, since Granaries and Workers are two things no early build can go without.

The granary boost is surely the most powerful part. The faster first worker is also very nice (saving 2-3 turns on the very first worker accelerates your entire civ by that much), and your position can take advantage of it.

Also it's worth noting that with flood plains around, the free +2 health is worth something.

Well, unless it's a varient game or something (Hey, there's a fun idea: Let's do varient game multiplayer games!).

I'm actually surprised there haven't been more!

Bismarck (Expansive/Industrious):

Bismarck is always a joy to play with his combination of a fast food building and a fast Forge, plus his combination means, IIRC, that he can get out Stonehenge before anyone else (Due to Industrious bonus + faster Worker production), if we wanted to add faux-Creative in. He's probably the best at actually building wonders due to his ability to generate many workers (chops!) and get the Industrious boost.

For sure, he's not bad at all. I'd like at least one trait that's good in the later game though.

Isabella (Expansive/Spiritual):

Spiritual goes well with most things, Expansive is no exception...but the ability to micro traits along with micro-ing Workers makes for some silly things you can do (Double-switch to Bureau + Organized Religion for free when many Worker chops come in for massive production boost? The usual Pacifism + Caste, etc). Might not be my favorite choice, but pretty big nonetheless. Will most likely be gone before us anyway.

I bet she's available if you want her. I think Mehmed will go before she does.

Mehmed II (Expansive/Organized):

Mehmed gets 5 cheap buildings, which is nice, in addition to Expansive and Organized working surprisingly well together, plus we can pair up Mehmed with a civilization that has a unique COurthouse for fun shenanigans (With the start, the Aztecs could be a real possibility with this, for half-cost Sacrifical Altars combined with Expansive Workers). He's someone who could realistically fall to us that we could take.

Agree on all. I think he'd be a fine choice at #8. The benefits of ORG over SPI are at least easier to quantify. Cheap courthouses give you a really strong teching midgame, and getting them up before anyone else is good for passive espionage. If you could get the Sumeria / ORG combo that's always really nice.

Ramesses II (Spiritual/Industrious):

This isn't the most potent combination, but it can make great work of a Pyramid build by combining Spiritual with the ability to pop in and out of Representation (Pop into it when Pacifism/Caste and default when not doing much else), Universal Suffrage (With cottage heavy to provide a production boost or, when mid-game or Great Merchant (farm?), pop into it to finish something key with money) and even Police State (A Police State + Theocracy + Vassalge combo for 5T or so can help bolster military). It also gets Cheap Forges, of course. Ramesses II isn't the most powerful combo, but I will admit he is one I feel like trying a little.

Discussing all these IND leaders, a point is that a wonder strategy can either succeed, or fail dramatically if you lose a key wonder you've sacrificed your early growth for. If me, I'd probably prefer to play something more solid and sure, but it's a matter of taste perhaps. But, with settling 1E you could have about as fast a worker pump as possible, and could probably get Henge if you were IND and went all-in for it immediately after the first settler.

Imperialistic is a trait I feel is a bit underrated, as the 50% Settler boost is truly quite significant and the Great General emergance can be a lot stronger than anticipated, especially if you do some early or HA-level conquest to prep some high power Knights, Curassiers and so on later. The key is that you can't crash yourself economically, a difficult task.

Yes, it means that settlers can be built for 67 hammers in theory, though in practice the food production isn't boosted so it probably saves you at best 25 hammers per settler or so? Now if you compare that to the 30 hammers saved by Exp on a granary it doesn't look very good, especially since hammers in new cities are the hardest to come by and accelerate your whole curve.

Organized:

Organized is actually a pretty good trait, especially given we're apparently on a Torodial map, and Mehmed or Zara could be pretty potent on this map. It's collection of unique buildings makes it good and -50% Civic cost isn't bad...they're a good cost saver, just not a game changer, though if this was Monarch + Torodial instead of Prince they'd shoot up in power. Given Torodial, pairing up Organized with a Courthouse unique building could be worth it. I've discussed pretty much all the worthwhile/relevant Organized leaders (Spritual/Organized works, but if so many Organized leaders are gone that we are picking that then there will assuredly be better options with other traits).

I didn't realize this was a torroidal map. But yeah. The fact that the strongest players in this game (perhaps) chose a civ for the reduced maintenance costs says something. I'd value ORG very highly here, almost certainly more than IND, CHA, SPI.

Protective:

Protective is useless and pretty much should never be picked, but there is one thing I always wanted to try with it: Tokugawa of France! Combat I, City Garrison I, Drill I 2-move Musketeers (Draftable!), with possible promotions up the wazoo, always seemed insanely fun to me. Not going to be picked this time, but I will find the combo one day...

Haha, yeah I've tried combos like that in single player too. The trouble is that the Drill line is never as good in practice as you wish it were.

And yes, I got a bit short at the end, but we're not picking leaders from those traits most likely and I cut this too close to choosing time. My Top 5 of Leaders We Could Actually Get In No Particular Order is something like:

Zara Yaqob (Cre/Org), Mehmed II (Exp/Org), Catherine (Cre/Imp), Ramesses II (Spi/Ind), Cyrus (Imp/Cha),

So what are the 7 leaders who will probably go down first?

Darius, Elizabeth, Victoria, Mansa, Sury, Huayna, Hannibal (?), Ragnar (?). That's 8, and that's if nobody wants a Civ. So you can certainly have one of those too if you want them, though admittedly Ragnar might not be worth it. (Letting Ragnar get back to Krill and Seven would be a disaster though!)

with Tokugawa, Hatshepsut and Louis XIV draggong outside and probably drinking.

Yeah or smoking or something!

[Kuro]

"Again, like Aggressive Rome, he's got one trick, and one time to shine. (And it's a really good trick.) He either will or won't."

I think the big thing with Sury, compared to someone like Aggressive Rome, is that Sury's trick is something that you pretty much always know will go off. No matter what you do early game, you NEED Workers to work and Granaries in your new cities. And whether you kill someone and take their stuff or just expand up yourself, Creative will save you time by either not needing to waste time in the captured cities and get straight to cheap Granaries/Libraries or the same with expanding. And ultimately the best way to be good in the mid to late game is to dominate the early game.

"I think Zara would be a fine pick for the style you want."

I quite like Zara, so I will probably snap him up if he gets to us.

"I think he's really good, but really could use something in the early game besides cheap lighthouses. Still I'd snap him up at #8. Civic upkeep is a decent amount of money saved in the later game, but it's still no Financial."

I'd probably snap Darius I up too if some of the other people were gone in retrospect.

"Yes, it means that settlers can be built for 67 hammers in theory, though in practice the food production isn't boosted so it probably saves you at best 25 hammers per settler or so? Now if you compare that to the 30 hammers saved by Exp on a granary it doesn't look very good, especially since hammers in new cities are the hardest to come by and accelerate your whole curve."

I think that you can do more than that with Settlers thanks to 2-pop whipping (15 hammers or so right there!) into a Settler and the fact that Imperialistic can 2-pop whip Settlers like no other civ, accelerating their growth curve by getting out the cities sooner and cheaper. While it's no Expansive (Few traits are!), I think it's a bit underrated. It'd be a lot better if it had some cheap building, though.

"Yeah or smoking or something!"

Really, if Zara, Mehmed, Catherine, Ramesses AND Cyrus are all gone by then, is all there is left to do!

[Kuro]

Zaldac selects HUANYA CAPAC!

Not a bad choice, Fin/Ind is nice.

[Kuro]

It took until the 5th pick for Sury to go...and someone picked Sumeria over a leader! How surprising...

[Kuro]

As for civs, let us discuss some of the options I would be considering...in alphabetical order!

Aztecs:

Techs: Mysticism, Hunting
UU: Jaguar Warrior
UB: Sacrifical Altar

If you're going Aztecs, you're going for one thing: Sacrifical Altars. 50% anger duration is pretty much amazing and with Organized it is only 45 hammers, meaning you can basically complete it in one whip-overflow from an Axe...oh, yeah, and it still functions like a Courthouse! Sacrifical Altars are amazing.

Sadly, the useless UU and poor starting techs (Hunting is actually okay this game setting + opening, but not w/ Mysticism) really hurt them.

Byzantine:

Techs: Mysticism, The Wheel
UU: Cataphracht
UB: Hippodrome

The Byzantine are a pretty potent civ, with the powerful Cataphract and useful Hippodrome that costs only 25 hammers under Creative, but I really dislike their starting tech combo, as it is slow to pretty much everything. They're pretty strong, but I think I will avoid them this game because of the slow start given what we see of the land.

China:

Techs: Mining, Agriculture
UU: Cho-Ko-Nu
UB: Pavillion

China's claim to fame is being the only civ with the epic 1-2 tech punch of Mining and Agriculture, combining the best starting food tech with a quick Bronze Working, making it something that works with most starts...for us, the tech combo is pretty great, as we can go Bronze Working -> Hunting and have a nice start~. The Cho-Ko-Nu is a nice unit, but a lot harder to use in MP over SP due to how MPers divide up units, Pavillion isn't useless but will not come up too often.

Holy Rome:

Techs: Mysticism, Hunting
UU: Landsknecht
UB: Rathaus

Holy Rome gets the same starting techs as the Aztecs, but instead they get the Rathaus, an uber-Courthouse that is -75% maintanence over half whip duration...I kind of prefer the Altar, though, due to being cheaper (90 vs. 120 or 45 vs. 60) and the fact that half whip duration can be pretty crazy. Holy Rome does win out by having the Landsknecht over the Jag, though, a sort of uber-medieval unit that can fight on even footing against most any unit of it's time.

The starting techs still suck, though.

Maya:

Techs: Mysticism, Mining
UU: Holkan
UB: Ball Court

Another Mysticism civ, but the Mayans DO get the Ball Court, an uber-Colossuem that gives +3 happiness and is a mere 40 hammers under Creative...though if we can land Zara, one of the other civs might be more appropriate, though Mysticism/Mining > Mysticism/Hunting. The Holkan is good to have if you get no metals early on...but we'd probably be pretty boned in that case anyway.

Mongolia:

Techs: The Wheel, Hunting
UU: Keshik
UB: Ger

While not the civ we'd pick if we went with Zara or someone, Mongolia would make a fine choice if we were knocked down to having Cyrus or something, since the Ger + Charismatic is scary scary~ The Keshik seems to be a bit overrated (It still has all the same weaknesses as a HA), but it is still strong. The Wheel/Hunting isn't too bad of a tech combo for this map, even if there is better.

Ottomans:

Techs: The Wheel, Agriculture
UU: Janissary
UB: Hammam

The Ottomans are one of those civs that is a fine neutral choice on most any map: The Wheel/Agriculture is a good trait combo, the Janissary tends to be okay and the Hammam is good...but I do tend to be disappointed by how pricy Hammam are. Someone like Zara of the Ottoman Empire is a good all-around player without many weaknesses, but without a strong amount of overt strengths either. Because of this, the Ottoman Empire makes a fine backup civ for if we get ones we want taken before us.

Persia:

Techs: Agriculture, Hunting
UU: Immortal
UB: Apothecary

Persian is on here for one sole reason: Starting tech combo. It's the only 1-2 punch that lets us go Mining -> BW and still improve the Ivory, though China can match this with Hunting -> BW or BW -> Hunting, due to the Zulu being taken. The Immortal aren't a bad UU, but they're no War Chariots, and the Apothecary is kinda useless. Not really a high end choice, but something to keep in mind.

Rome:

Techs: Fishing, Mining
UU: Praetorian
UB: Forum

Going around smashing people with Praetorians never gets old, but I don't think a torodial map, even Prince Torodial, is the place for it.

Sumeria:

Techs: The Wheel, Agriculture
UU: Vulture
UB: Ziggurat

Sumeria would have been a powerful option for us due to their combination of starting techs and a possible cheap Ziggurat, even if it means somewhat glossing over Creative's ability to ignore the religious line, but has already been taken.

Zulu:

Techs: Agriculture, Hunting
UU: Impi
UB: Ikhanda

Ragnar of Zulu would be an extremely potent combination on this map with a psuedo-Rathus via Ikhanda + Courthouse, the starting techs in our position and the great Impi UU, a good unit that doesn't obsolete until Knights come into play (And even then they can be very useful as 2-move 8 power vs. Knights units that get defensive bonuses). However, the Zulu have already been taken.

The three civs I'd be looking at right now are the Aztecs, China and Holy Rome: China's starting techs would give us a nice boost early on and cheap Pavillions aren't bad and Cho-Ko-Nu make good units, while the two other civs give us a powerful and cheapened replacement for the Courthouse if we can land Zara Yaqob or Mehmed II. The Mayans are also up there due to the Ball Court's ability to provide great cheap Creative happiness and since IIRC this is a Reverse Snake (meaning we'll pick 4th next round) we should be pretty set on leaders. If all our choices go down, we can always default to the Ottomans as the good-vanilla-civ.

[WilliamLP]

So, 3 picks are left before us, and Victoria, Hannibal, Mansa, and Elizabeth are still open.

Aztecs:

Sadly, the useless UU and poor starting techs (Hunting is actually okay this game setting + opening, but not w/ Mysticism) really hurt them.

The starting techs are horrible, I wouldn't underestimate how badly it hurts for the rest of the game to be down 60-100 beakers in your start. Espeically on torroidal where research will be costly. You don't want to be 10-20 turns behind everyone else in having Bronze + Pottery.

China:

Techs: Mining, Agriculture

I think China's techs are fantastic but not necessarily the best unless you need Bronze immediately. With your start I don't think you do.

Persia:

Techs: Agriculture, Hunting
UU: Immortal
UB: Apothecary

Persian is on here for one sole reason: Starting tech combo. It's the only 1-2 punch that lets us go Mining -> BW and still improve the Ivory, though China can match this with Hunting -> BW or BW -> Hunting, due to the Zulu being taken. The Immortal aren't a bad UU, but they're no War Chariots, and the Apothecary is kinda useless. Not really a high end choice, but something to keep in mind.

You mention War Chariots. Is this a 2-part post and you haven't yet brought up Egypt as a choice? To me they are probably number one. Egypt gets 120 beakers worth of crucial techs from the start, the most possible, and has arguably the best early unique unit in the game.

The disadvantage with hunting is it's only worth 40 beakers, and you can always research it while building the first worker and pick something else you're going to need anyway (like Wheel which is worth 60). Then you always come out 20 beakers ahead.

If me, I would discard all Myst civs (except banned India, obviously) from the get-go. It's an opportunity cost of 60 beakers you could have in something else that is useful immediately. (Agri, wheel, or 50 for mining.)

The three civs I'd be looking at right now are the Aztecs, China and Holy Rome:

If me, I think Aztec or HRE are very suboptimal choices.

I'd also consider, after Egypt: Ottomans (Agri, Wheel for 120 beakers), Babylon (for starting techs again), France (same techs again, fantastic UU). Mali (Wheel, Mining, research Agri first) would be an oddball choice but might work.

To me, there are plenty of decent civs, and I'd almost certainly choose a leader first. I think Egypt is the only civ left good enough to consider picking over a leader first.

Also to note is you could have a good Financial leader, and on this start pottery before bronze could be strong, and is worth considering. This would favour a wheel civ. (And wheel is again an expensive early tech.)