January 26th, 2006, 17:21
Posts: 803
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Joined: Mar 2004
Well I am also confused why this type of post is here. Part of the reason I gave up on GOTM in Civ3 was because it accept what I felt was total abuse with thinks such as RoP rape.
Now I find Civ4 has a major flaw to exploit, and you are celebrating it? I will be really glad when Firaxis closes this one. All this post has done killed any interest in getting back into GOTM....
January 26th, 2006, 18:02
Posts: 81
Threads: 2
Joined: Jan 2006
Quote:Now I find Civ4 has a major flaw to exploit, and you are celebrating it? I will be really glad when Firaxis closes this one. All this post has done killed any interest in getting back into GOTM....
I must say that I enjoy playing GOTM because they are fun and seeing where you rank out of hundreds of people can also be a great challenge to shoot for. But I have to agree with you, milking the game takes the challenge out of the GOTM in my opinion. I didn't milk, so I'm not getting a real ranking (in the spoiler thread people were milking games getting hundreds of thousands of points because of milking, if you didn't milk and got such a great score than Kudos to you  ). I wish GOTM didn't accept milking games (not to make any milking fan mad, you can do whatever you like to have fun, but this definitely isn't my cup of tea).
One more thing, does Moonsinger have a strategy article thread or something.  I checked the forum and didn't find one. I'd like to know what this constant anarchy and chop strategy is all about.
C4P Ladder Player
January 26th, 2006, 18:11
Posts: 107
Threads: 3
Joined: Dec 2005
I haven't seen it myself, but the basics of this are:
1) Forest chops work at any time.
2) Units are not disbanded (due to support costs / negative treasury) while in Anarchy, nor the turn you come out of anarchy.
3) Production does happen the turn you come out of anarchy, using any stored hammers.
Thus, the general idea is to be in a state of near-constant anarchy, using chops to build units. Without having to afford the support costs, the unit numbers can explode. The rest is, I'm sure, just finesse.
IMO, #2 on the above list is the big exploit -- which Sulla above said will be fixed next patch. Go Firaxis!
January 26th, 2006, 18:13
Posts: 81
Threads: 2
Joined: Jan 2006
Majromax Wrote:I haven't seen it myself, but the basics of this are:
1) Forest chops work at any time.
2) Units are not disbanded (due to support costs / negative treasury) while in Anarchy, nor the turn you come out of anarchy.
3) Production does happen the turn you come out of anarchy, using any stored hammers.
Thus, the general idea is to be in a state of near-constant anarchy, using chops to build units. Without having to afford the support costs, the unit numbers can explode. The rest is, I'm sure, just finesse.
IMO, #2 on the above list is the big exploit -- which Sulla above said will be fixed next patch. Go Firaxis! Wouldn't your teching go up in flames???
C4P Ladder Player
January 26th, 2006, 18:56
Posts: 92
Threads: 5
Joined: Mar 2004
Yes, your teching goes up in flames. You only tech to Iron Working, and then occasionally extort government-changing techs from opponents, before redeclaring and crushing them.
This really goes to the heart of the remaining issues in the game. Sure, the anarchy thing is broken. But that's just one small, overly exploitative tactic. It's gravy here. The elements that really make this work are forest chops and praetorians, combined with the strength of early worker captures.
The romans are somewhat overpowered. Praets are just too strong. Nerf them or they'll continue to be the one-stop-shop for Deity victories.
Forest chops are just too strong. And, what's worse, they put players like RBCivvers in a bad spot: Do you use chops? How much? Is there a limit? Are you pushing it at a certain point? Is it totally okay, despite potentially giving the kind of advantage that makes Deity not particularily difficult? It's impractical to avoid chopping, but yet the more chops, the better you are in the early game.
Perhaps chops should only apply to buildings? After all, I don't know what part of a Praetorian is supposedly made out of wood.
-Jester
January 26th, 2006, 19:29
Posts: 123
Threads: 7
Joined: Apr 2004
I've never understood the fascination with the game's score in such a game like Civ. Score is good for PacMan !!!  In Civ, I find it a lot more interesting to win as fast as possible, and fortunately, RBCiv agrees with me. That's one of the reason why I'll never go back to CFC's GOTM, the goal sucks. It has been fun to enter the Top 20 in the GOTM while sticking to Civ3's RBCiv rules though.  Then of course, getting the fastest victory for each victory condition makes the most sense out of the game. That, or the fastest overall, so that people should try to find out which path is quickest. When you combine this basic goal with a complex scoresheet (like in Adv 3), the game becomes quite hard : you know when you're losing some ground against the other players and that gives you the will to fight back. While still considering the Milky Way as some fattening lifestyle.
January 26th, 2006, 20:10
Posts: 22
Threads: 1
Joined: Jan 2006
Well, that's certainly not the best thread for posting this, but I'm too lazy to register somewhere else and at least Sirian is reading this... 
If chopping really is too strong (and I'm not sure about it as I haven't used it that often so far - though I try to change this after reading some reports here...) maybe the amount of hammers produced by it should depend on the actual era your civ is in right now. It might also fit historically as better technologies enable more efficient use of the woods.
Just my 2 [pick any currency]
Threepwood
January 26th, 2006, 23:56
Posts: 258
Threads: 32
Joined: Dec 2005
Seems to me forest chops are balanced just fine. Three chops for a settler, but you lose out on 1.5 health for a nearby city. It's all about interesting decisions, I believe.
Sure, it works great on a small map playing as Romans against one or two deity opponents. So it's, what, one out of six billion possible games, where a forest chop is the best strategy? That still leaves...five billion, nine hundred and ni...a lot of games to decide on
January 27th, 2006, 01:45
Posts: 1,922
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Joined: Mar 2004
Hi,
first, for reference, here's the link to Moonsinger's article:
clicky
Another of her key concept besides anarchy/chopping/praetorians is to capture the Pyramids to be able to swap governments.
I don't think chopping is broken. First, it already depends on game era, in the sense that 30 hammers in the beginning of the game are a huge boost for your three-city empire which builds cheap praetorians, while the same 30 hammers (albeit adjusted for forge/factory) have less impact for your 30-city empire building a modern armor. And I'm with theGrimm here: In most games, chopping everything in sight has severe disadvantages too, and is by no means a no-brainer.
If I use Moonsinger's "strategy" to win one Deity game, I haven't beaten Deity in my mind. I will have beaten Deity if I have won a regular game not stacked (too much) in my favor; if I have won some Deity games under different conditions. If those following her advice have fun and are satisfied to win a Deity game that way only, let them - Fun Is Where You Find It ( thanks Occhi!). I find my fun elsewhere, and am content to know I'm in a community here that agrees with me.
-Kylearan
There are two kinds of fools. One says, "This is old, and therefore good." And one says, "This is new, and therefore better." - John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider
January 27th, 2006, 08:30
Posts: 4
Threads: 1
Joined: Jan 2006
That's more like it folks, now that we've got the name calling out of the way we've got a real discussion going here.
Carry on rewardless.
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