Q Bakes an Evil Doom Muffin

[The Black Sword]

There definitely are some interesting ideas there. I have the issue of not really knowing how they all meld together too well. But I am a big veteran of BtS teamers on GS. I know all about the IMP settler pump civ allowing the others to cruise it. The game style generally played allows one back player to go eco whilst 2 others engage on fronts. I don't know how useful wonders are in FFH though - on the BtS teamers henge is stupidly powerful at 80 hammers for free monuments in everyones cities for example.

The starting tech thing is interesting - the seafaring civ opened my eyes, as the way it is implemented allows all 3 players to benefit from a tech that only that civ would usually be able to get. Not quite sure if it is worth picking for though. I am unfamiliar with tech paths through the game but understand the idea of keeping everyone on a fairly similar path.

One other thing is that would an elven team to mass produce workers to keep forests on calendar resources be useful? My gut feeling is that it sounds a lot better than it would end up being, but you never know.

-FFH wonders in general aren't as spectacular as BTS ones. Nonetheless, you have some good ones like the Bone Palace(free GA) and this being essentially a big duel, they have a lot of denial value as well. An Ind civ could be a good idea though, in addition to the wonder bonus, it also gives +25% worker prod in FFH, so they build workers for the rest of the team.

-Picking 3 civs with 3 separate starting techs is also obviously the ideal. Agriculture and Ancient Chants stand out as the two most important to me, allowing quick God King(slightly nerfed Bureau) in all 3 capitals and Agrarianism.

-Unless it's since been changed in eitb, elves can't build improvements on forests in allied territory. A teamer does cover some elvish weakness' though and you can put them in whatever start has the most forests, so it's not a bad choice.

[GermanJoey]

how do unit gifts work in ffh2/eitb? for example, if a doviello battlemaster is gifted to a calabrim teammate, does it become a vampire, or what?

[Bobchillingworth]

You can't gift units, even to teammates.

[Kredom]

ok options for the team?

not sure if clan is banned or not so:
i like Svartalfar for early harash and then later battles if we head to hunting.
if not i like balseraph for a more common tech treeline.
calabim, grigori and kuriorate are good choices i like 2.
anyway i can play on any role we need.

[Qgqqqqq]

Okay yeah Clan isn't going to be banned. In which case I think we definitely want Jonas Endain of the Clan, which REM seemed to want to play.

So we just need to thrash out the other two.

Clan (and especially Jonas of the) means that we've got some strong incentives to head for RoK - Soldier rushing effeciency and all that - so I'm not sure how much we want an elf leader, who will of course want a very different tech path. Which Svart leader were you thinking of, Kredom?

I'm actually getting quite a strong inclination towards Lanun - probably Hannah, as we already have a EXP leader. Lanun have: a very strong start, which will help compensate for the Clan's slow start, good tech synergy with Clan (Iron Working Shipyards!), would help us dominate one of the main battlegrounds of the Inland Sea (the sea ) and don't really demand much of a specific tech path - they're very flexible. Also, remembering just how strong the islands were for Mardoc/Ellimist/Thoth - and with the only access to that being the sea, being able to secure it for ourselves and deny it to our enemies could be invaluable. Downsides are that we probably won't have water at the start, that if we do look for water then we'll need to divert techs away from Agriculture/Calender, that INS can be quite a variably useful trait, and demand very different areas of the tech tree, and that the Lanun don't really bring any abusable toys to the table. Still, I think they're still a strong candidate, and worth bringing up as a "techer" civ.

Calabim I'm not so sure about actually. Decius is obviously substantially weaker now, enough that I wouldn't want him, we don't want another funder civ (FIN Flauros), Feudalism is basically a dead tech to everyone else, and I've personally never been fond of PHI/AGG Alexis. OTOH she does bring AGG moroi to the table, which would be quite powerful and help us hold our own, and her Governors Manors are a bit cheaper then they were. There's also the more intangible not wanting to imitate the pitboss too much. Thoughts, everyone?

[Qgqqqqq]

Grigori are another one that can work as techer (sort of in the same vein as Hannah). I personally don't think of them as very strong (they're up for buffing in v12 of EitB, IMO), but I'm not very good at managing great people so well, so maybe it's more about me - I certainly see how they could be good in a teamer, being the IND civ to get wonders out/building workers for the team, contributing heroes to early defense (axemen, probably), just generally being the PHI civ for early teching and so on. But AGN is a pretty big nerf, especially with a SPI leader around, their heroes probably point them towards the ARC branch, which is probably a slight downside when we've already got Shamans to do a lot of the work, and just generally they feel quite...vanilla-y to me. Still, I wouldn't be upset if we ended up with them, though I'd probably ask someone else play them

Balseraphs bring Agriculture to the table, so that's good. We'd definitely want to go Perpentech IMO, 3 traits are better then anything the others can field. They do pull a bit towards the arcane route for puppet abuse, but they're quite flexible with most paths and have toys scattered everywhere. Still, I think the main pull is the economy, which is pretty amazing with three traits, Freak shows, a free double-length golden age and agriculture. They, like the Lanun, are quite flexible and can sorta pair well with anything, though they prefer an ARC focus.

Civs I'm not interested in:
- Kurios (quite strong, especially in a teamer, but we already have an EXP leader lined up, not sure we want two)
- Sheaim (Stronger now, but with the AC off? No thank you.)
- Dovellio (just...a bit meh. We don't want EXP again, and AGG/CHA for war *is* quite good, but it has the cost of bringing another BAR leader to the table, which is something I doubt our economy could stomach)
- Luchuirp (nerfed, slow, and just generally a civ I dislike. Plus, Barny will be impossible to train without barbs.)

[The Black Sword]

Here's some thoughts on the civs. Bear in mind, I'm not too familiar with the latest mod changes, so I may be missing some stuff.

I agree with you re. Doviello, Sheaim and Luichurp.

However, Kurios are just too strong in a teamer game, despite the duplicate Exp. They blow any other techer civ out of of the water. The main argument against them IMO is that Clan/Kurios is a little boring.

Sandolphin of the Sidar is another decent idea for a techer. He provides Ind for the wonder building too and the immense mobility of Divided Soul attacks. The recon line emphasis is a bit weird though. I think this is the only combination where I'd pick the Svarts. Volanna is Cre/Agg now? She does the early fighting, Sandolphin the teching, and Jonas the expanding, tech path is pretty focused. Starts with Agri and Ancient Chants.

Grigori are also a pretty good techer as you mentioned. They are a lot better with the duel nature of this map too. In a FFA, you might not have opportunities to put early adventurers to good use, that's a lot easier in a zero-sum game. They have a pretty flexible tree too, you generally don't want an army of only Priests, so I think it's a benefit to them that Jonas can make up that area they're lacking.

Other techers:
Einon of Elohim - copy cats
Dain of Amurites - requires Arcane focus obviously. Could very well win the game in the Lacuna period though.
Alexis of Calabim - Pretty solid choice for a techer I think.

The Lanun idea is very good, what are Hannah's traits now?

Khazad - could do really well in a team setting, goes nicely with the Clan's melee emphasis.
Tasunke of the Hippus - the ultimate early game fighter.
Bannor - Constant Crusade!

Arendal of the Ljos - March of the Trees rush. Only reason to take the Ljos I think, but it's a damn good one.

I think Clan/Kurios/Khazad might be my cookie-cutter choice.

[Qgqqqqq]

Hannah's insane now, so three random traits by the time it matters but starts as FIN/RAI.

You may have a point re Kurios. Hmm,will have to think on that.


One point on Kragroth, who at the very least seems to be running his team is that he comes from a much more GS format. In our duel he rushed very fast, with axemen/Rantine running at me before warrens (or agrarianism, for that matter). So a rush early on might well be on the cards.

Post more in 9 hours (or, more likely tomorrow).

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I'm not too experienced with all the options and game power combos, and certainly not with tech paths, so I will leave the final decision down to you guys.

Yeah I would like to play the exp clan. I think a settler push will be easier to get a grip of than any other type of gameplay here, especially as the game progresses. I should be able to support you guys expanding rapidly hopefully and take the game by storm!

So that is city building, as for the others I do like the idea of the lanun. Bare in mind as their bonuses are gained via a tech not open to other civs all three of us will get bonus ship movement and bonus sea tile gold, which is like spreading their bonus right around. Also if we can deny the water to the enemy then that could be a huge boon.

I like the sound of the balsaprahs also, but again not too familiar with things to really comment too much.

Just a thought is the disparity in units that great between civs that we need a war civ? Or would an exp clan mixed with 2 solid techers be better? Like a teacher civ and an ind civ perhaps?

From the sound of it clan/bal/lanun seems a solid choice of 3 civs, and would probably be my choice. But don't listen to me too much, I don't have the first hand experience.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Or listen to TBS and go with his suggestions. I'm easy with whatever