[spoilers] Commodore and Dtay: Saladin of the Gael

[dtay]

Actually, if I can justify it at all (pasture food), I really really really want Aztecs.

Fan of aztecs. Given we're at the end of the snake pick synergy is reasonably achievable, Org is a top tier trait on it's own without synergy, so cheap alters = old slavery = awesome.

In general I think the best picking strategy in RtR right now (especially if in the latter half of the snakepick) is grab one of the top tier UB-civs with the first go around (zulu, inca, aztecs, etc), then grab a leader that makes the UB cheap + some other good trait. And since the traits are all pretty balanced (still think Phi kinda sucks and Cre is only meh) there should almost always be a good leader available to pair with the civ. The civs in comparison are less well balanced, with a few civs that have meaningful bonuses attached to them and then a whole lot that only offer start techs + marginal benefit.

EDIT: Probably fair to say the Zulu UB is less game changing than the other two examples, but still get a spot at the table with the awesome Impi UU.

[Commodore]

Zulus are an interesting case of Aggressive synergy with both UB *and* UU, nowhere else do you see that.

[dtay]

Occupying time with speculation, and ignoring all the things that can get in the way (ag-required start, someone picking them, changing mind to different civ) if we do get the Aztecs, what traits would you think of matching with them? I think obviously ORG, and then we probably want an early game trait to match with it.

My thoughts on the traits (in the context of pairing with ORG, though some thoughts are broadly applicable):

Can't be PRO since the pair doesn't exist (as I re-discovered for myself in the PB22 snakepick, to my chagrin).

Exp I think is great. I believe often yields the best 2nd city times, and then after worker-production dies off has a ton of sweet cheap buildings into the mid-game. Especially the cheap markets, which are a game changer happiness wise. Exp/Org would be a very very good early game that then goes right into possibly best, but certainly top-tier midgame. And is fine in the lategame. (Agg and Fin are certainly better late game traits than Exp).

Cre I still think is underpowered in general and not really an early trait. How useful it is depends a ton on how much auto-border-pops lets you grab more food early, which depends way to much on a part of map creation that often isn't purposefully standardized. Too much variance imo. And somewhat anti-synergistic with having Myst as a start tech (though this isn't really a big deal if I liked the rest of the trait).

Agg is not really an early trait. Cheap barracks provide an alt to monuments, but if I'm skeptical of Cre's early bona-fides then a 30 hammer build that you don't REALLY need in the early game doesn't improve things. I'm certainly higher on Agg than Cre overall (Commandos!), but not really for an Org pairing. Additionally the Agg maintenance reduction is anti-synergistic with Org's cheap courthouses. And also Aztecs have Mysticism from the start anyway so we have reasonably chance of religion and forced monument access.

Cha - not early, similar to Cre in that if we end up with lots of happy it doesn't matter as much so is super map-dependent, and the cheap markets from Exp often accomplish a similar goal, and then the rest of Exp is awesome. Though this is the other way to get sweet sweet commandos.

Imp - I think it's inferior to Exp but still good. Certainly synergistic with Org since cities are cheaper. And probably better than normal on this map since I believe the PB1 map is larger than the current RB standard.

Spi/Fin - very skeptical of double lategame traits. Fin more defensible in my opinion because it comes into it's own really in the midgame and if Darius is in contention in the lategame he really does just kill it economically, but I think increasing the probability of being one of the midgame contenders is more important than advantages in the final fight between 2-3 civs. More nuanced discussion is needed here if you decide double-lategame isn't a deathblow,

Ind - meh. Maybe I'm just biased cause of my less than stellar outing in PB19 (thanks Commodore ), but while Ind isn't really as lategame as Spi/Fin it certainly doesn't give you any boosts to the early game making me skeptical, unless we have a super wonder focused strategy. Do we want a super wonder focused strategy? TGL is nerfed to just "good", but Pyramids are still great and specialist economy goes well with Org.

My initial concluding thoughts:
RtR may have rebalanced the snowball, but the snowball is still king and a fast start guarantees a place at the table. Therefore at least 1 early trait is a very good idea. Of the early traits, I'd say Exp > Imp > Cre(?). Pro would be 1st or 2nd, but isn't available with Org.

Final thought is that whether we have a tasty neighbor to snack on is going to be more important than the traits in any case, so if there's a fun factor associated with some combo that's entirely worth consideration. (Commandos!) (In case you haven't noticed, commandos are fun!!)

[Commodore]

Actually, I'm not going to say Org is a must at all with the Aztecs. I see the benefit of cheapening SA, but honestly? I kind of like the fact that SA are already -30h discounted. It's like half of Org's normal discount already baked in!

Additionally, SA mean that slavery and drafting are better deals all game long, plus the Aztec player wants a pretty fast Code of Laws...I was thinking about Saladin, thoughts? Justinian in a very similar vein, too, but with Drill's inclusion back into Pro I think I like Pro better.

[dtay]

On the Org question, even though there's a free -30 Org still seems probably optimal to me. The altar is something we're probably going to spam in nearly every city, and saving 45 hammers per city (old Cre Library savings is what I'm calibrating my gut-instinct with) (and then getting the benefits 45 hammers earlier, maybe saving a forest or a whip/pop) is still super powerful. and that all on top of Org being a top-tier trait without the synergy.

I do agree agree Org isn't literally a must to be competitive. As you pointed out, the baked in -30 makes the altars non-prohibitive with any trait, so we'll still get substantial use out of them. But I do think Org is still strictly speaking optimal.

Given non-Org leader, Saladin is great/interesting. Allows us to get Pro, which is great. Spi seems good and I've never used it before, so there's an additional incentive to do it. Micro in and out of civics is a fun concept. Spi+Myst+want CoL = early religion play? (Pray for Hunting-food).

Question I'm legitimately unsure of the answer to: Is spiritual better or worse with the altars? Are we going to want to be whipping enough more often we don't even really want to be out of slavery for a long time, delaying the benefit of Spi, or does it make slavery good enough that while pure-Caste/Serf is still better than pure-slavery mid-game (speaking generally), a 50-50 split becomes even more desirable than normal?

[dtay]

Question I'm legitimately unsure of the answer to: Is spiritual better or worse with the altars? Are we going to want to be whipping enough more often we don't even really want to be out of slavery for a long time, delaying the benefit of Spi, or does it make slavery good enough that while pure-Caste/Serf is still better than pure-slavery mid-game (speaking generally), a 50-50 split becomes even more desirable than normal?

Forgot altars apply to drafting until I reread your post. That I think puts it clearly in "better together" territory, since going in and out of draft is obviously great in the endgame.

More I think about this more I'm liking Saladin, (more specifically more I'm liking the combo of altars and Spi, Pro is just generically great). It's probably inferior to Exp/Org and Imp/Org, but better than the other /Org leaders (if only Pro/Org existed).

[Mardoc]

Silly question: what if one of the nine teams that pick before you see virtue in the Aztecs?

[dtay]

Silly question: what if one of the nine teams that pick before you see virtue in the Aztecs?

[Commodore]

Silly question: what if one of the nine teams that pick before you see virtue in the Aztecs?

I nod without much surprise.

I also fully expect to get fish/grains/deer, invalidating Hunting as an option.

[Commodore]

By the way?

Free Speech would change from this:

• Free Speech: Available at Liberalism. +2 commerce per town. +100% culture. Low Upkeep.

To this:

• Free Speech: Available at Liberalism. +3 commerce per town. +1 commerce per village. +100% culture. Low Upkeep.

Liberalism beeline is better and better, so call that a mild buff to Financial and Philosophical as well.