Plants vs Zombies: Heroes

[Cheater Hater]

Now that I've been playing this way too long, it's time to make a long post about balance.  Obviously Seven can't talk much about this aspect (though I'm going to talk about game design as well as power level), and I'm sure I don't have the full picture (not even half the heroes unlocked, especially since my last 20-pack didn't have any), but this is just what I've seen:

General:
1. The creature curve seems very out of whack in general.  The 1/2-drops are generally powerful (as you would expect with the block mechanic), and most 6-drops+ are "you win the game" in most cases, but 3/4/5-drops generally suck in terms of stats (and thus need other bonuses to compete).  I shouldn't have to go through hoops to get a 3/4 for 3 or 4/5 for 4 it seems like.
2. Yes, 6-drops (and especially 7+) saying "you win the game" isn't inherently bad, but there's one problem: most of them are Legendary.  I know, making expensive cards Legendary means players don't need multiples, but when a card like Soul Patch, Cornucorpia, or Zombot 1000 wins an otherwise unwinnable game, it's going to look very pay-to-win no matter how noble the intentions.  A design that has obvious downsides like Wall-Nut Bowling or doesn't single-handedly win like Dandy Lion King feels like a better design while still being flashy.
3. It feels like a lot of the terminology needs to be cleaned up--in particular, "Play" shouldn't include playing a creature, playing a trick, a creature materializing on the battlefield (through spell or trigger), or being revealed from a gravestone. There was also a case where Ra Zombie brought me from 6 to 4 Sun, then Water Balloons didn't get boosted even though I clearly made 6 Sun--is that a bug or intended behavior?

Plants:
1. Something needs to be done about Solar Flare--whenever I'm playing another hero (Plant or Zombie) it feels like I'm unnecessarily risking my rank, and the ladder feels the same way.  There are plenty of problems here:

1. Sunburn just breaks the rules of Superpowers.  Most unique Superpowers are one of the following categories:
   • Defensive (Wall-Knight, Rustbolt)
     
   • Efficient removal spells (The Smash, Rose)
     
   • Efficient cheap creatures (Nightcap, Neptuna)
     
   The only other exceptions are Professor Brainstorm (though you could argue its defensive, since a lot of the random cards are creatures mostly used for chump-blocking) and Solar Flare.  Most of these spells are reactive, or don't get you much of an advantage, while Sunburn puts you ahead for the rest of the game.  You don't give up anything for it though, as the Shock end of the card is still playable late game (or if your opponent is dumb enough to give you a target T1).  I swear I win 90%+ of the games where I go T1 Sunburn, even if it's to the face.
   
2. Mushrooms feel too powerful for their cost, but more importantly it seems very hard to nerf it effectively.  Yes, Buff-Shroom and Punish-Shroom are flashy and important parts of the puzzle, but the real culprit is Shroom for Two being a 2/2 for 1, two bodies for Buff-Shroom to pump/Punish-Shroom to trigger from, and two bodies for non-Frenzy/Strikethrough Zombies to fight through.
   
3. The combo of Solar and Kabloom has the most removal: Kabloom gets burn (Berry Blast is great, Cherry Bomb kills most boards, and Sour Grapes stops swarm strategies as a niche card), while Solar gets non-toughness-based removal (Squash is the only way to deal with certain threats, while Chomper and Toadstool are two-for-ones).  In particular, this lets Solar Flare counter her presumed weaknesses (no Amphibious, no card draw) quite easily.
   
4. Solar Flare has the most ways to push through damage in the late game, whether it's removal, burn to the face, or all the Strikethrough creatures.
   

Again, I don't have many plant heroes yet, and haven't seen everything (the freeze strategies seem unfun at least, and my Bean/Amphibious Citron deck feels like it can only win with an uncontested Admiral Navy Bean or two in an evenly-matched game)
(I thought there was more here)

Zombies:
1. Gravestones are a fine mechanic (even if including things like Exploding Imp feel a bit too swingy--sidenote: why has no one I've played tried to play it with buffs?), but why the heck don't they take any damage? Obviously this is a niche mechanic (as damage to the Gravestone wouldn't carry over to the Zombie, and putting it at 5 health dodges the most-important burn in Kernel Corn and Cherry Bomb), but I feel like there are two important cases. First of all, Bonus Attack builds get hurt disproportionately, and thus Mega-Grow needs to buffed proportionately (especially when the buff strategy in general is hurt by efficient Deadly and Gargantuars). Second, going into a Gravestone during combat should have consequences, not provide an impenatrable wall--In-Crypted shouldn't get to be a blink effect and a wall while cantripping (though I swore there was a non-Superpower that did it).
2. Frenzy is unfun. Yes, I get that Team-Up needs counters, but you already had that--it was called Strikethrough. More importantly, Strikethrough on Zombies (and in general) is on fragile creatures, while Frenzy is on durable creatures that are actually efficient. The fact that you can get a 15-power attack for 5 mana as a basic card (Smashing Gargantuar) is crazy, and that's before you consider how pushed Coffee Zombie is or how Maniacal Laugh has no counter. Either it should just be Trample, the second attack should allow a counter-attack, or the creatures in general need a toughness decrease.

I probably have more, but these are the most important points I want to get off my chest.

[Cheater Hater]

Okay, something has to be done about Hearty. You can't have one class have the best overall stats on its creatures (Arm Wrestler being a 3/3 for 1 or more is a joke), undercosted move effects (Sumo Wrestler either needs a stats hit or removal of Gravestone, probably the latter, and I'm worried about Gargantologist pushing Rodeo Gargantuar over the edge it's already dangling over), vastly undercosted Frenzy (it seriously becomes a trigger whenever I get screwed over by it, especially in the trick phase where the opponent usually gets a 2-for-1+damage), and a mass removal spell in Weed Spray. There is seriously no weakness to the class (only thing that comes close is the lack of Amphibious, and that's countered by all the move effects), even before you consider the second class.

Also, Brainana is too hard of a counter to any trick-based strategies, unless you let Zombies play tricks in the first phase. The idea of ensuring a trick-free phase at a reasonably-high cost is fine, but in many cases it's a six mana Time Walk on a reasonable body (with Amphibious to boot, meaning not even a board clog stops you from playing it), which isn't fun in any sense. Overall, that's a trend I don't like--you give each strategy over-powered tools, but then have hard counters, making it a matter of matchup luck (which is exasperated further by locking up the heroes behind random packs). Again, if you want to do that, that's fine, but don't make people play certain classes (through boosts/quests) and don't have generalist classes without any counters besides playing better cards (Hearty in general, the Freeze deck).

[SevenSpirits]

I'm still reading, sorry for the lack of response. I just don't think I can talk about it enough to actually respond to anything, you know? I guess I'll say that I agree with some of your criticisms and disagree with others. Thanks for checking out the game and saying what you think about it.

[Cheater Hater]

I'm still reading, sorry for the lack of response. I just don't think I can talk about it enough to actually respond to anything, you know? I guess I'll say that I agree with some of your criticisms and disagree with others. Thanks for checking out the game and saying what you think about it.

I completely understand--at some point this thread became a place to vent more than anything else, though I hope most of what I've been saying has still been somewhat constructive, even if the latest stuff has been more "this feels bad" rather than based on concrete balancing (especially my rants on Hearty/Frenzy). I'm hoping an update comes soon though, if nothing other than to replenish the advance stock of event cards (maybe they're waiting for the tech to let cards be recycled for full value if they're nerfed?). I don't know what I would change though: obviously Sunburn is the highest priority (though I don't think it'll be fair unless they remove the damage entirely, which they won't do since it isn't gold and looks bad compared to Sunflower) and Hearty needs a hit somewhere (I'd start with bumping Weed Spray to 4 and maybe un-Gravestone-ing Sumo, since rebalancing the entire creature curve isn't realistic). That isn't what other boards complain about though: they hate Teleport (which you can't nerf without making unplayable; you'd have to hit Zombot), Freeze (which I'm coming around to; the 1/2 is too swingy and Freeze itself maybe should be halve attack rather than skipping it, or maybe the Superpower cantrip freeze should be nerfed somehow) and Berries (does two Strongberries really go infinite? It shouldn't, since it's worded like a replacement effect.

Honestly, part of the problem is that it feels like I'm plateauing with the game: I rarely play ranked, I play only for quests and boosts atm, and getting screwed over threatens me getting my 4 boosts for the day, so it lowers my ceiling. The only deck I feel comfortable taking into ranked is Solar Flare, and in both that and casual I'm running into so many Hearty decks. On the flip side, I'm forced to take my zombie decks into the Casual room to clear quests (since the current AI match feels impossible) and it feels like 90% Solar Flare. Maybe I just want something new?

[Cheater Hater]

A new update released recently (apparently it wasn't pushed until just now for me, but it's been around for about a day) and it did a lot (beyond just adding the next batch of event cards). The whole app got a visual refresh, and this is most visible in the decks screen, where it was completely redesigned and includes pre-built archetypes (which you can use as a starting point or complete with gems), which should be nice for people new to CCGs. There are also improvements to accessibility, with almost every event card available up to this point craftable with sparks (including this week's Sporticus) and all of the heroes are available for gems at all times. There are also a lot of bug fixes, and even features like animations pausing turn timers (which Hearthstone doesn't even do yet AFAIK). Overall this is part of what the app needed...

...but only part. There still isn't a goal beyond the near-impossible top-tier in ranked--heck, I don't even play much ranked anymore. There also should be a balance pass--I've softened on Frenzy somewhat, but I still feel like something should be done about the Freeze deck (Snowdrop is way too snowbally, but I think Freeze should be nerfed itself if Popcap is willing to make a fundamental systems adjustment) and the Sports deck (Defensive End isn't as bad as it looks (though Gargologist is still bad for design at best and broken at worst), but something needs to be done about the curve, probably Sumo Wrestler). We also need communication--is a second set ever coming, or do we just get a new card a week? Of course, the real problem is the economy--moving to 20 ads a day (even ignoring the time-traveling/multiple device shenanigans other people are pulling) has made most of the other F2P sources of gems irrelevant (which is bad when that's the only reason to play ranked). We're already seeing the consequences for this, as the 20-packs (the main efficient way to get packs with guaranteed legendaries) and 50-packs have moved to money only. I'm new to the app scene, but that feels desperate--clearly they're still supporting the game, but it's worrisome.

Edit: We have a big problem though: queue times have tanked since the update, at least in the casual queue for plants. What the heck happened? Did you tighten up matchmaking, or are there just way fewer players? Considering I'm on a tight timer to get four boosts a day, this is completely unacceptable (and no, play ranked isn't an answer if you're going to force me onto arcane heroes to get 10x boosts).

[Cheater Hater]

Now that it seems like Set 2 will be released imminently (Reddit sources say it's ready to be deployed--I'm expecting a shadow-drop during EA's conference this Saturday), I think it's time for a postmortem on Set 1.  Overall it set out to do something unique with the Hearthstone mold, and I'd say it succeeded.  However, there are plenty of problems that I hope are improved with Set 2 (I don't know much about Set 2 even though most of it has apparently leaked; the new card type seems interesting though), so let's go through things in no particular order:

• The two biggest innovations of the gameplay are the lanes and asymmetric gameplay (it's always Plants vs Zombies), and they had different results:
  • The lanes are a great success, especially the "left to right, heights to water" sequence, which I was doubtful about at first.  I do wish there was a bit more that cared about it--other than avoiding the ground against certain heroes' superpowers (and the center against Green Shadow) and the obvious Heights triggers/Amphibious stuff, the main design that clearly looks at it is Toxic Waste Imp, as you want to put "lords" as far right as possible (it extends to putting Punish-Shroom/Imp Commander in lane 4).  I wish there was something to incentives Lanes 2/3 though (other than being earlier in the turn order).
    
  • However, the asymmetric gameplay hasn't worked out as well.  The basics of the PvZ dynamic is that the Zombies have to commit their creatures first each turn, but they get to play tricks to respond last.  However, Gravestone has so little counterplay from most plants (only Grave Buster counters it directly, and Spyris is just a bonus on an already-reasonable creature) that it's become the main way to play Zombies.  In fact, most of the strategy of the good Zombies decks has been to try to remove as much agency from the Plants player as possible, through Gravestone creatures, playing exclusively on the Trick phase (the Brainy "flash" creatures, good pump, or just playing mono-removal), or something like Zombie Coach, and that isn't fun.
    
• Why is there so much mana acceleration in the game with only the first set?  Magic has stepped away from the 1 mana accelerant, but Sunflower by itself isn't a problem (heck, Hearthstone has a better Dark Ritual and it's fine)  The problem is that there's that, and Sunburn, and Sunshroom (which seems stupid btw, since Solar Flare didn't need a buff), and Gentleman Zombie, and Flag Zombie, and Brain Vendor, and Gargologist (the most-egregious example so far).  Mana is always the root of evil here, and always causes problems.  Here it's a bigger problem since all the Legendaries are 500 mana, and making ramp one of the best strategies invites "pay to win" comparisons (which will always be true in a CCG, but the original design worked well enough--then the event cards require constant play and introduce power creep, while adding the basic cards to Set 1 diluted it for new players (and old players still buying packs and not waiting for Set 2).
  
• Popcap needs to figure out a UI that lets them change cards (and presumably letting them give you a Sparks refund).  The biggest example of this is the "Fruit Loops" combo (double Sergeant Strongberry, plus a third berry source), as putting an infinite combo in their opening set reeks of inexperience.  However, instead of either changing the way the boost works (there is no reason for it to be a separate source of damage, it should just add to the numbers) or explicitly excluding Sergeant Strongberries from the boost, they made a shield block all damage until the instance stops, which screws over Punish-Shroom and Admiral Navy Bean in the process (which is hurting lower-tier strategies).  I don't know if nerfs need to happen (I think they should, but I'm in the minority, and a new set will obviously change a lot), but they need to be able to do something.
  
• There are way too many one-drops that easily spiral out of control: Blooming Heart, Pea Pod, Snowdrop, Paparazzi Zombie, Unlife of the Party, and Arm Wrestler (with Headstone Carver getting an honorable mention because it makes other Zombies overpowered).  This isn't bad on its own (Unlife, Paparazzi, and Pea Pod seem fine), but the problem is the creatures that gain in survivability or grow too quickly.  Those punish you too much for either not having good one-drops of your own (which isn't good enough against Plants) or if you have weak/conditional Superpowers in your pool (the main thing keeping Rustbolt from being too OP: his Superpowers are conditional and/or bad to start with).
  
• Team-Up is awful right now, and it's the one thing Plants are supposed to get that Zombies don't.  The problem is that Zombies get way too many counters for it: Frenzy and Strikethrough are given out like candy, while the cheap mass removal combination of Weed Spray and The Chickening makes getting more bodies on the board a liability.
  
• Overall it feels like Zombies get everything Plants do except Team-Up (and the Freeze deck): overpowered one-drops, Gravestone on all the mid-tier drops, and the over-statted Gargantuars.  That means in order to reliably have a chance against a good Zombie deck you have to either be doing something overpowered yourself (the freeze deck) or with such a high floor (Solar Flare in general: efficient creatures, burn, and large removal, along with the chance of speeding things up a turn without taking a chance on dead Sunflowers in the end game)
  
• Having daily challenges is a great idea, especially when they give so much (one free event card, along with a pack). Having strategy decks is a great idea for the new person, even if they're biased to have more legends than you need to sell gems. The problem is when you force people to use those awful strategy decks to win the challenges--they're mostly luck, especially when you force people to play Team-Up decks which just don't do anything (or worse, that one last Sunday where you have a bean deck where half your deck is useless and they have a top-tier deck even if they start with three cards and the useless Going Viral--the only way to possibly win that is for your opponent not to do anything for the first three turns and you have plenty to do--and even then you have to dodge Weed Spray).
  

(more later?)

[Cheater Hater]

Turns out my prediction about when Galactic Gardens was released was wrong, as it actually released today. So far I'm liking what I see overall, though these are just my initial impressions upon looking at the spoiler:

Good:

• Balance updates! Granted, they're to Hero Powers (so they don't have to compensate people) and they're all buffs (except for the minor nerf to Brainstorm), but it's a start at least.
  
• Actual timing on the Ranked Seasons is nice, though you could at least let us know when Season 1 is ending...
  
• Crazy going all-in on the direct damage route finally gives it an identity. I'm worried that identity is going to be one-turn KOs with stuff like Flamenco Zombie+Binary Stars (btw, it isn't clear is Binary Stars only works on direct damage or if it works in combat as well), but that can hopefully be fixed later. Overshoot also works well at giving reach without completely nerfing Team-Up.
  
• So many good one-drops that don't spiral out of control (Planetary Gladiator, Disconaut, Cheese Cutter, Galacta Cactus, Astroshroom (the Bullseye applies to the ability, right?), Mars Flytrap). Unfortunately there are a couple that possibly can, but they seem more difficult to trigger consistently.
  
• Lots of good designs outside of the major mechanics--I like working with the Super-Block meter (Body-Gourd is a very interesting design, especially in Guardian where it isn't just "draw a card"), and the designs you borrowed (*cough*Doran*cough*Evolve*cough*) are good as well.
  

I Don't Know:

• Environments are too up in the air at this point--I'm not sure how many are strong enough to avoid the tempo loss of not playing a creature, but I'm not sure how "only getting rid of environments by playing your own" will work--did I miss any other ways?
  
• I'm not sure why you gave Sneaky a Freeze sub-theme--for as much as I complain about it, Freeze felt like a good thing to keep to mostly Plants. I also think the combo of Deadly+Freeze is too consistently good, especially if the Freezes happen in the Trick phase.
  
• Conjure seems like a fine thing to keyword, but I'm not sure if you really needed to have it on a fifth of the new cards. The Cosmic (tribe) cycle being half of those cards seems kinda lazy too. All the Conjure that exists makes the game more random, and also lessens the identity of Mega-Grow/Brainy being the card draw colors.
  

Bad:

• Not only was Brainy's over-reliance on the Trick phase not nerfed, it got worse by giving it Rampant Growth in Cryo-Brain (aka a way to gain permanent advantage if you don't need board advantage), more good Tricks (do Zombies play Environments in the Trick phase?), and a lot of playable Bullseye. I think Teleportation Zombie is a little weaker than it seems, but I really think it shouldn't have Gravestone (being able to strand Zombies in the opponent's hand should be that card's weakness, especially when it's already a 1/5 for 2).
  
• There aren't that many new Gravestone Zombies, but there isn't much to help against them--Cool Bean is very weird though as freezing Gravestones doesn't really do much (Winter Squash doesn't work with it apparently, and I assume they still get their reveal effects)
  
• Hunt did not need to become a keyword. Zombies needing to be committed in the first phase is supposed to be their weakness, and there isn't much you can do against Hunt as a Plant, especially now that the creatures are bigger than Dog Walker.
  
• Why does Beastly need so many efficient Frenzy creatures? In particular, Interstellar Bounty Hunter seems P2W stupid, and yet another card that makes Team-Up a liability.
  

Now time to open some packs and start playing I guess :/

[sunrise089]

Just wanted to chime in to say I appreciate these thorough writeups CH.

[Cheater Hater]

Just wanted to chime in to say I appreciate these thorough writeups CH.

Thanks! Are you actually playing PvZ:Heroes, or just watching from the sidelines? Anything else I could explain better? (my posts have assumed a decent level of knowledge of PvZ:H, as there's no easy way to link cards--heck, a cursory look at the subreddit didn't even find a Visual Spoiler I could reference myself, so I had to keep looking back and forth at my tablet for names and abilities of the new cards)

Now that I've played a couple games, it unfortunately doesn't feel like much has changed--granted, I haven't played that many games yet (and they've been mostly in the casual room), and the average player doesn't have that many new cards, but it still feels like the lack of interaction for Plants (through Gravestone/Brainy shenanigans) makes playing a "fair" Plant deck feel pointless. As a simple example, my 10x boost Plant this week is Grass Knuckles, and it feels like the main thing he does is pumping good Bullseye creatures (and playing efficient creatures in general)--that doesn't do much when my opponent goes T1 Headstone Carver and then a bunch of Gravestones (especially now that Zombie High Diver means the strategy isn't inherently limited to four lanes), or if they don't have to play their hand until after I've already committed my buffs. Maybe the answer is that I should try a new archetype (the Conjure strategy deck seems like a decent starting point, except that it's reliant on a playset of the Legendary Captain Cucumber), or maybe I should just switch to Super Brainz (my 10x boost Zombie for the week), though I've never found I had a good deck for him (though the movement stuff in Sneaky might be better with Environments in play--I just feel like most of Sneaky's tricks are too conditional and I just keep mulliganing all the Smoke Bombs in my opening hands trying to find creatures).

[pocketbeetle]

First of all, thanks to Seven and CH for this thread.
Started playing a little while ago and as a free to play person the game content feels nicely balanced - there's still tons of missions I've yet to complete and there's nothing essential that's ring fenced off and unavailable unless you pay cash. So great job there.
Towards the higher ranks yes there is that feeling of "oh he's playing control, cornucopia/ gargantuar's call incoming", but generally it's still fun.

However unfortunately the new patch seems to have followed the usual EA rule of breaking the game for me (happened with Simpsons, PvZ2 etc)
I can -just- about get it to work on my tablet although it's often very laggy/ unresponsive.
But I can't get the game to work on genymotion at all now.

Anyone managed to get it working on genymotion or a similar android emulator?