Posts: 2,100
Threads: 12
Joined: Oct 2015
I pretty much agree with your tiers.
I do think that America may be as strong or stronger than some of the "worth having a look" tiers, because
a) that combat bonus is a whole-game thing;
b) the combat bonus is tied to your home continent, which you are guaranteed to have access to, unlike a foreign continent - still a bit situational;
c) Rough riders come at a decent time to be pushing for a final win - although nothing upgrades into them.
The real problem is that they've been played twice and are not very interesting.
I've not played India or Kongo. Kongo have never made much sense to me. Their UU has detterent potential, but I think it is too early and the wrong class to be much use on offense. On a typical map, and one lacking the "rush" civs, crossbows will be in the field by the time expansion is over and the warring begins. Possible if you really, really want to go early GG and offense - but Greece may have grabbed the GG...
I don't think I got the best out of Brazil when I played them in SP. They're kind of interesting if you think a cultural victory is a real possibility in MP. But in the world of chops, apprenticeship and industrialism having to keep rainforest around is kind of meh. And their unique district just isn't one I can see spamming in MP. Better GP recruitment, kind of OKish, but you have to keep competing for lots of them to get to this ball rolling. The MG is powerful but situational. Range 3 bombardment can be useful on quite a lot of maps though...
I don't know about India. Again, I feel the Varu is going to be up against knights and crossbows by the time serious war starts, but may still hold some value with it's higher strength and the special ability. Shame about the movement though. I can see stepwells being useful, but they compete with chops for builder changes. Early they are an alternative to a granary, later they can keep you growing up towards size 10 more easily for that fourth district. The enemy war weariness could potentially be fun, both as a deterrent as a drain on anyone you're conquering, but it's really only great in a one-on-one situation. You get the better of a long war, but anyone else at peace is better off still.
Of the three, I kind of like India, but haven't any particularly strong feelings.
A lot depends on what kind of victories are practical in Civ VI and how you get there. It's been pretty much domination, domination, domination (in PBEM2 those missionaries were travelling on the stirrups of cossacks). Peaceful religion is pretty much impossible now that players understand the mechanisms. Science seems tricky to me - very dependent on getting the right Great People. Cultural? Maybe.
So, domination depends on having access to good units. This is primarily a science thing, IMHO, although culture can help boost the science. More directly, culture can get you to corps and armies - although Nationalism seems to have been broken by the patch, with corps now actually only available at mobilization, which thus cannot be boosted . Meh, maybe Brazil is the most relevant then for the district bonii - campuses, commerce for the upgrade gold, maybe faith for stuff too? And hope to be able to get Chichen Itza. If the mapmaker has given you lots of jungle and Kongo is not competing for it...
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
Posts: 851
Threads: 22
Joined: Aug 2011
Good points regarding America! Also, Montezuma having a better ability is of course no reason not to rank America below Aztecs. What was I thinking? They still seem kind of dull, though. I can't think of anything I'd want to try out in a test opening with them.
I haven't read many PBEMs in detail, but from the ones I read I got the impression that rushes with Swordsmen-replacements can be viable. Maybe I need to read some more.
Given that swordsmen are too early, I guess the Egyptian chariot archers won't be terribly useful either...well, at least they'll be great for city defense. But not being able to build regular chariots to upgrade into knights is a huge drawback. I guess the best bet would be to attack with Musketmen or Cavalry.
About Varus, yeah, I wouldn't want to use them for rushing, I was more thinking of parking one in a city to give all the besieging troops -5 strength.
I didn't even mention the Brazilian UU because it came too late to matter in PBEM4 and that was an extremely long game on an island map.
Culture victories are definitely not viable in MP. The other players would simply declare war to cut you off from tourism. One could of course gamble on them not paying attention until it's too late, but that's something I'd only consider as a Hail Mary when I feel like I have no chance to catch up. And that probably won't work in such a situation.
Posts: 2,100
Threads: 12
Joined: Oct 2015
(March 22nd, 2018, 14:20)RFS-81 Wrote: I haven't read many PBEMs in detail, but from the ones I read I got the impression that rushes with Swordsmen-replacements can be viable. Maybe I need to read some more.
Well worth double checking my beliefs . They're great on tiny maps, or as defenders / deterrent if you don't have iron (unlikely on an RB map); they can be useful as support units for crossbows. They can also be useful for capturing city states early (not something I tend do do in SP much, but highly viable in MP). But the Kongo ones don't have a strength or attack bonus (compare with legions or the Macedonian district/city killer), so I don't rate them particularly.
I still have no particularly strong feelings about the three. I suspect Brazil's early bonuses to districts (until you chop the rainforest...) to get a snowball moving is the strongest single thing amongst them, but I could be wrong, particularly if you don't pick a strategy that pushes towards an early campus or holy site. Depends a lot on the map...
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
March 24th, 2018, 12:17
(This post was last modified: March 25th, 2018, 08:12 by RFS-81.)
Posts: 851
Threads: 22
Joined: Aug 2011
Hmm, chariot archers are nearly as strong as crossbows, though not GG-able. Also, I expected that we play on a tiny map since we're only four players, but I'll double-check in the organizing thread.
Anyway, I took India for a testdrive! I rolled several starts where I ended up with barbarians or another civilization right on top of me. In another game, I forgot to switch out God King after reaching a pantheon. The only rational explanation is that India is cursed and I shouldn't pick it.
Gandhi's India
Leader ability: Satyagraha
For every civ you met (including India itself) that has founded a religion and is not at war with anyone, you gain 5 per turn. War weariness is doubled for civs at war with Gandhi.
Civ ability: Dharma
A city benefits from the follower belief of every religion present in it, not just the majority religion.
Unique tile improvement: Stepwell
Unlocked at Irrigation, must be built on flatland and not next to another stepwell. +1 , +1 housing. An additional +1 if next to a farm, +1 if next to a Holy Site. +1 at Feudalism, +1 housing at Sanitation.
Unique unit: Varu
Unlocked at Horseback Riding, but is an elephant. Does not replace the Horseman. Heavy Cavalry, 40 strength, 2 movement, costs 120 , needs no resource. Adjacent enemy units get -5 strength. This does not stack and doesn't seem to affect units garrisoned in cities. Upgrades to Tanks.
EDIT: The debuff does stack.
The Stepwell is the thing I like best here, since they make it easy to grow your cities. A stepwell next to a farm and holy site is a pretty good tile! Their effect scales up a bit over the course of the game too. Gandhi's ability gives another bonus to generation. If you can keep out of wars, you'll get at least 5. My strategy would be to go for an early religion and try to leverage the faith lead into a science lead with Wats and Jesuit Education, then use Theocracy to pump out units during the Medieval Era.
Dharma seems more like a SP ability. Maybe you can pick up some minority religions in MP by trade routes or proximity.
The Varu might be good for defense.
Doesn't seem like the worst choice, overall, but Brazil can get an earlier headstart in science, as you said. If it has jungles. They probably have a starting bias towards jungles, but I don't know if the custom map we're going to play will reflect that.
Posts: 2,100
Threads: 12
Joined: Oct 2015
(March 24th, 2018, 12:17)RFS-81 Wrote: The only rational explanation is that India is cursed and I shouldn't pick it.
This is the sort of logic I can get right behind .
I thought that the Varu stacked, based on stuff I'd read, but experiment is king. The "not affecting units in cities" is a serious issue; I wonder if that is: it doesn't affect cities (they're not units, duh) but it would affect units attacking out of cities.
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
Posts: 5,874
Threads: 52
Joined: Apr 2012
I thought Bacchus demonstrated Varu -5CS stacking. I wonder if that changed in the last patch along with the GG no longer stacking.
March 25th, 2018, 07:54
(This post was last modified: March 25th, 2018, 08:00 by RFS-81.)
Posts: 851
Threads: 22
Joined: Aug 2011
I double-checked, and it does stack after all I think I missed it because the two debuffs didn't fit into the textbox at the same time. City strength seems to take only the base strength of the unit into account, e.g., fortifying inside a city also does nothing, and the debuff just doesn't apply to cities. When the unit is attacking out, it should be debuffed, but to test it, I would need India to besiege me.
Anyway, I'll submit my civ picks soon, in case I'm holding things up. I go with India for my fourth pick. My testgame with Brazil was great, but it was the most ridiculously awesome map I've ever seen. I should try if I can dig out the map seed again. My start had lots of jungles (of course) and floodplains, and I grabbed the Lady of the Reeds and Marshes pantheon. I never ran into housing and amenities trouble so fast. The jungle adjacency bonus is great if you can combine it with other bonuses. I planted a campus next to two mountains and three jungles for a +5 bonus, similar with a commercial hub next to a river. Also, you can mine jungle tiles without chopping them if there are diamonds. Plains-hill-jungle-diamonds FTW!
But there are the following issues: - I can't bet on having such an awesome map.
- If I don't get a jungle start, I'm basically playing a blank civ.
- If the start is excessively jungle-chocked, getting the Craftsmanship boost can be tricky.
- I don't trust myself to correctly decide when to get rid of the jungles that provide adjacency bonuses.
- More jungle means less forests, means less production from chops.
Civ picks:
1. Egypt
2. Aztecs
3. Greece
4. India
Posts: 2,100
Threads: 12
Joined: Oct 2015
(March 25th, 2018, 07:54)RFS-81 Wrote: Civ picks:
1. Egypt
2. Aztecs
3. Greece
4. India
Sounds good to me. I think you've got a good chance of getting Egypt.
I was thinking about this - you'd almost want to plan to skip the Craftsmanship bonus, hope that working rainforest would mean you could go settler before builder. Would still leave you wondering where to find the missing early culture and how to hit a bunch of other inspirations and eurekas though. Anyway, not hopefully not relevant for this game! Getting a completely jungle-choked start as one of the other civs could be bad...
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
Posts: 851
Threads: 22
Joined: Aug 2011
Everyone got their first pick! Now that's a surprise. Japper is giving the Kongo another spin. I didn't expect anyone to rank them this highly.
Posts: 851
Threads: 22
Joined: Aug 2011
First of all, sorry for the new thread title. Hey, it beats some joke about walking like an Egyptian, right?
I guess it's customary to discuss your opponents and their civ choices, though I don't know if I have anything interesting to say. So:
rho21: Doesn't seem to have played any MP (under this name, on Realms Beyond), so I have no idea what to expect. He's probably out to grab some early GPs with Greece, but I can't guess where he'll go from there.
suboptimal: I seem to remember that he has some Civ 4 experience (but using a slightly different handle at the time). He played a good builder's game with Australia in PBEM 6, but got conquered by TheArchduke's Macedonia because his army was spread too thin. I don't think that's a mistake he makes again. I tried dedlurking him in PBEM 3 where he played Arabia, but didn't really have too many interesting things to say, so I silently dropped out. I hope he doesn't hold a grudge, and that I don't receive any karmic justice. Him picking Aztecs first is surprising. I guess he's trying to go out of his comfort zone here, hopefully he'll not do anything crazy! This is certainly not a game for farmer's gambits.
Japper007: Without question the one with the most MP games under his belt. He enters many PBEMs in parallel, and doesn't report a lot compared to other players, so not sure what to expect. (Spoiler because partly based on ongoing PBEMs)
Kongo is a surprising first choice, since it lacks early economic bonuses: You're not going to get any early relics without goody huts, and even with them it's a gamble. So I'm sure Japper is in it for the Ngao Mbebas, and if he prefers them over Eagle Warriors, he's not out for the city states. Having +10 ranged defense sounds like it would be more useful on the defense, but it means that you have an easier time tanking hits from city walls and garrisoned ranged units when you go conquering. My chariot archers would average about 20 damage against them, about 14 if they have the tortoise promotion. Regular archers will have it much worse. You'll still want a great general before charging into fortified swordsmen, but if he puts crossbows behind the Ngaos, he can wear them down faster than the other side can wear down his Ngaos.
Then there's me. I have zero experience with multiplayer civ. I've read enough PBEMs to know that you should avoid producing things that aren't boosted by a policy, and that chop-overflow is king. If you want to know my plans, just go back to page 1 of this thread! What can go wrong? (Except, you know, everything?)
|