It's Chevalier's Thread and He Can Do What He Wants To

[RFS-81]

oh and Hansas are great. Two things, though: 
1)It seems like native production is being de-emphasized in favor of chopping. In the short-term, then, Hansas aren't necessarily amazing, since the handful of extra cogs they provide pales in comparison to +150% stone harvests (Magnus is still around in this game, guys). Later on, as you exhaust choppable resources - we were nearing that point in PBEM7, part of why that game ended when it did - Hansas will shine more. 

2)They like being next to Commercial Hubs, but on a naval map I'll really want to build Harbors instead. Building both is wasteful, since you don't get two trade routes, and the district buildings get REALLY expensive. 

Hansas are still 50% cheaper, insanely easy to boost, and will make even small cities productive even into the middle game. So it looks like the gameplan as Germany is patience - get your infrastructure up, research towards U-boats, and wait, wait, wait for your dense urban core to gradually come into its own. I might even have to out-wait the exhaustion of choppable resources on the map, something which has never happened but might be possible on an island map! 

Keep in mind that Hansas don't get the regular Industrial Zones bonuses (at least last time I played Germany in the base game), so no bonus production from mines. They get +2 from CHs and +1 from resources (bonus, strategic, or luxury, they don't even need to be improved IIRC). The bonus resources are all on the chopping block, so after you're done chopping, the Hansa won't be that great anymore, unless you build CHs.

(Banzailizard, shouldn't the Hansa be a CH replacement in the first place?)

I'd suggest picking Arabia, too. Also, a minor nitpick, you talk about the cost of the worship building, but if I understand correctly, only the faith-cost is discounted.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I have to say, I really enjoy all the discussion here. Makes this thing feel a lot more like a team effort, y'know? 

If my vote for a civ counts, I say Arabia.  Why? Well production is the bottle neck in civ 6. Faith and gold let you short circuit that.  It also let's you save your chops, something that might be more limited on an island plate map for more important things like districts.  

The only real contender would be Germany to me, but as you pointed out, Hansa in R&F conflict with the desire to build harbors.  (As an aside it might have actually made more sense for harbors to boost Hansa districts since the Hanseatic league was primarily a Baltic and north sea organization but whatever).

Use the faith building on either wats or on meeting houses ( 2 production will pay back the 19 invested in 10 turns).  Then rocket ahead in science.  With the VA banned having more advanced units will matter more.  It would almost be interesting to see an Kongo Arbia team for max synergy on religion.

Arabia is probably the easiest of the civs to set up the district bonus on, since it wants to build Holy Sites and Campuses everywhere. It's much easier to set up the bonus if you want to build several of an early district. Germany on the other hand can be harder to set up the bonus on if you want to wait for Hansas, since you will probably have at least 7 districts unlocked by the time you get to Hansas. That means you can't build your half cost district as your "loss leader" unless you wait a heck of a long time to build districts, which is not a winning strategy.  I suppose on a water map you could just use Harbors as your full cost district with any civ. It's just a lot easier for, say, England or Russia or Korea to set up the bonus since their cheap district is early.

I also like Rome as a choice, simply because of the early culture and the Bath. Rome's the only one that compete with Australia and Indonesia on Housing when it comes to a sea map, and Magnus is still in this game and Rome will surely get him first. I'm not sure I like Germany here, except possibly to conquer early city-states, but with less competition for them I don't think it matters that you might be able to do it a few turns earlier with a weaker army. Everything else about Germany is simply too late. By the time Hansas and the extra district matter, teams with early bonuses will be ahead on the snowball, and nobody should be planning around U-Boats tipping a war one way or another. Worse, Germany seems to encourage passivity in the crucial Classical/Medieval eras. If Germany is chosen, you have to do something like Japan did in PBEM4 and get a bunch of overlapping bonuses, and we need to be willing to commit to a war in the late Classical/early Medieval era if it's appropriate, not wait around for all the bonuses to come online.

After I posted yesterday morning, I spent most of the afternoon thinking over my choices (well, not most of the afternoon. I also went to the store, fixed one of the shutters on my house that was damaged in a severe microburst we had last week, completed New Vegas's Dead Money DLC, and made some more progress in my current books), and I was leaning towards Germany. I'm really jealous of the awesome set-up Archduke had in PBEM7, and I would sort of cross my fingers and hope it worked out better for me than it did for Singaboy in PBEM4 - which mostly consists of "don't get caught flat-footed by a massive English Armada." Then play the waiting game and hope no one gets conquered, like Japper in PBEM4 or Japper in PBEM5 or suboptimal in PBEM6 or Japper/Cornflakes in PBEM7 or Emperor/Rowain in PBEM8...okay, yeah, Germany maybe wouldn't work so well.

You guys have talked me into giving Arabia a hard look, at least. I figure the basic game plan would be to exploit the science/faith synergy to the hilt - we use holy sites as our "loss leader" on discounts, with as many campuses and harbors as we can cram in. We try and nail Jesuit Education (and I think Church Property? Gold income has to complement science and I don't think we'll be as in need of DotF, we have the Mongols in our back pocket this time), which lets us faith purchase Madrasas as well, then research towards, what, Madrasas -> Frigates -> Steel? Alternatively, we aim to land a Mamluk invasion force backed by Frigates before Steel, and hopefully reach Steel as the deciding factor (first one to battleships won the naval wars in both PBEM4 and PBEM7). 

oh and Hansas are great. Two things, though: 
1)It seems like native production is being de-emphasized in favor of chopping. In the short-term, then, Hansas aren't necessarily amazing, since the handful of extra cogs they provide pales in comparison to +150% stone harvests (Magnus is still around in this game, guys). Later on, as you exhaust choppable resources - we were nearing that point in PBEM7, part of why that game ended when it did - Hansas will shine more. 

2)They like being next to Commercial Hubs, but on a naval map I'll really want to build Harbors instead. Building both is wasteful, since you don't get two trade routes, and the district buildings get REALLY expensive. 

Hansas are still 50% cheaper, insanely easy to boost, and will make even small cities productive even into the middle game. So it looks like the gameplan as Germany is patience - get your infrastructure up, research towards U-boats, and wait, wait, wait for your dense urban core to gradually come into its own. I might even have to out-wait the exhaustion of choppable resources on the map, something which has never happened but might be possible on an island map! 

Keep in mind that Hansas don't get the regular Industrial Zones bonuses (at least last time I played Germany in the base game), so no bonus production from mines. They get +2 from CHs and +1 from resources (bonus, strategic, or luxury, they don't even need to be improved IIRC). The bonus resources are all on the chopping block, so after you're done chopping, the Hansa won't be that great anymore, unless you build CHs.

(Banzailizard, shouldn't the Hansa be a CH replacement in the first place?)

I'd suggest picking Arabia, too. Also, a minor nitpick, you talk about the cost of the worship building, but if I understand correctly, only the faith-cost is discounted.

I know only the faith purchase is, but I tend to swap back and forth between gold, faith, and production freely, using production as the "base currency" since it's the most precious. Putting everything in terms of production costs helps me estimate various costs better. 

And yeah, yeah, okay, you guys have talked me into it. We'll probably give Arabia a go. Just once, though, I'd like to play a game using a power civ like Rome or Germany! -quietly nudges Korea behind the curtain-

Archduke - Netherlands UU is nice and UA is not half bad either given how policy cards work in R&F

Rowin - probably Brazil. Unless he is going for
 novelty and picks like Mapuche to try and hit hard on golden ages, no one else really helps him here.

Japper I think Australia is the stronger pick but Indonesia would be quite good as well.

Emperor k - pretty much has to go England.  Norway might be ok, but England is simply fantasic on the water.

Incidentally, either Australia or Indonesia is a real threat on this map. Australia loves the coast (bonus fresh water, coast has appeal so their districts will be ridiculous), and so does Indonesia. If Archduke had rolled those picks I would have been very scared. I'm less scared of Japper, who is getting better but still needs to demonstrate he can get a civ economy off of the ground as fast as the rest of the players here. This is his best chance, with little chance of an early invasion and two very strong economic choices available to him.

Otherwise, I agree with Banzailizard about the other players' choices. There's some slight possibility Emperor K takes China and tries to build some wonders, since again early invasion will be hard. Maybe Rowain takes America (as a reminder, in R&F all their diplo slots turn into wildcard slots, which seems really powerful but maybe not until Tier 2 governments) or Russia (for the cheap religious/cultural game). The Archduke has a lot of nice early military civs but the wrong kind of map for them, and Georgia just feels weak in a game with no goodie huts to earn easy Era score. I mean, maybe he tries something interesting with Scotland and happiness, but it just seems like Netherlands is the clear choice there. Japper should select one of the 2 builder powerhouses (and even can fall back on Japan if he wants a still fairly good builder with some combat bonuses in coast). The interesting thing is that it looks fairly likely that we might get a lot of early builder play just based on likely civ choice, which means this game might go past the medieval era. England's the one obviously positioned to pose an early threat, and I suppose it's possible that they just stomp one civ after another in a reprise of PBEM8, but a) It's not The Archduke at the helm, and b) It's not really a huge threat until frigates, which will give people plenty of time to prepare. I'd add c) hopefully people learned from that one, but my belief in the rationalism of people is not terribly high at the moment.

Not gonna lie, I had my fingers crossed for Indonesia or especially Australia on this map. I think Australia is the bigger threat, I agree - the appeal bonus to districts is absurdly easy to get high adjacency districts of any sort you want, but especially nice on island plates is the housing bonus. Both of those things make them strong from the get-go, with great campuses and even holy sites and lots of high-pop cities before granaries or aqueducts. No specific naval bonus, but they'll be a research/production machine, and if the game lasted long enough the Digger would be basically unstoppable on land in its era. Oh, and we'd have to be in Always War mode with them from the start because of their stupid Citadel of Democracy bonus (which I think would be more flavorful and balanced if it were attached to the American civ, which still needs some love). The idea being if Japper takes Australia, fuckit, we give him the +100% boost right away, and not later on when he's building more important things. Alternate strategy would be to wait for someone else to declare war, and then pile on the same turn so he only gets the boost once. 





Indonesia is still scary, but not as big a threat, I think. The minor adjacency for coastal districts isn't as good as Australia's appeal bonus, but Japper WILL basically be a lock for whatever pantheon he wants with +2 faith in every coastal city (unless he founds his capital off the coast??). The real threats, though, are the kampung and the jong. The jong unlocks at Mercenaries, giving Indonesia a period of naval dominance until someone else can rush to Square Rigging. It's faster, too (big deal in naval maps), and if Japper can have it escort things it gets +5 strength, too. Makes me wonder about a few cheeky plays involving, I dunno, scouts or something, to give your entire navy another +5 boost (stack it with a GA, try and land the terra cotta army, and suddenly your whole navy is +17 strength, which is one-shotting things. ). And of course you can use jong chains to transport things anywhere in one turn, although that's more fun than it is practical. 

The kampung is Indonedia's signature improvement, letting them get large cities on tiny stupid islands. I'm not as worried about this as I am about the jong, though. Why? Well, I think the kampung is actually a trap! Tiny stupid islands will let Japper have cities where no one else can - but the name of the game these days is not native production, but choppable resources. Tiny stupid islands have nothing to chop except some crabs for upgrade gold - and if he chops the crabs, then he can't build a kampung anyway. Escalating settler cost means you have a limited amount of cities to place, you can't just slap 'em down anywhere (if settlers stayed the same cost, then 100% yeah build those tiny stupid island cities, they still contribute science, gold, faith, and culture if nothing else), and so I hope if Japper takes Indonesia he'll get suckered into the SP game of building lots of kampung archipelagos that can't compete with mainland cities without a TON of builder labor (builder labor that is spent making his cities' just as viable as everyone elses' are from the get-go), which would give the rest of us a leg up on him. 

I think Australia is the larger long-term threat and the civ I wanted the most to take on this map. Indonesia will be really scary in the window between mercs and square rigging, and then should be manageable. 

I guess I'm going to go ahead and analyze Japper's civ choices later today, since I've already done 2.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

wait, forget a scout army to boost your navy, make it more useful - missionaries! Grab Holy Order and Synagogues for tons of faith, probably Crusade synergizes as well, then give every ship a missionary. You beat your opponent's navy with the +5 strength (stacked with as many bonuses as you can), then when you reach the enemy city, you use your leading missionaries to convert and trigger the Crusade bonus instead (and you still have spares to give another +5.

Man, now I wish we had Indonesia, we'd Deus Vult! it all over the place. My fanatical pirates would be the scourge of the seas.

[Banzailizard]

@RFS-81 yes Hansa should be CH or Harbor replacements.  In fact the first few SP games I had with Germany, I kept try to build them on currency and forgetting no it's am IZ replacement.

I did not really think about China's potential but there are three strong classical age wonders that could pay off handsomely: Great Lighthouse, Colossus, and the Mausoleum. This is besides the Stonehenge and pyramids.  (The colloseum is a bit less useful on island plate maps because it is hard to pack the cities close for maximum benefit.) The extra eureka and inspiration boots are better now that base tech completion is down to 40% from each.  Could be a strong civ choice especially since England has been nerfed a bit and GA do not stack.

For Rowin, I did not, and do not, think much of American as a civ even with R&F.  Basically now they are a discount Greece until the late game. UU still cannot be prebuilt and then upgraded, and the film studio while really powerful late game...well none of these games go late. +5 combat bonus on home continent is good but I am not sure how it works at sea of at all. ( Another missed chance for an interesting bonus would have been some kind of Great White Fleet realated bonus for Teddy)

Russia I consider possible, but weak on this map type. The religion could be useful but that is all he has going for him.  The extra tiles are less impactful when there is less land to claim, just more useless coastal tiles.  He will have nowhere to put all those great writers and artists to work as well, a perennial Russian problem (...without gulags [ just dark humor because Russia]) I would say it is his second best choice, but second best none the less.

I know I was pushing for Arabia but Rome could be a strong contender.  I forgot about the culture meaning early goveners, which also means early Ling.  That in turn means you can build 3 improvements and then scout with a 1 charge builder to meet CS like singaboy did in PBEM 4. She also has that fishery bonus.  Is that any good? Well better chops less population loss means Magnus first. Plus as you said baths are useful. Only downside is that they do not count for district discounts. Not to mention more culture means early fleets and armadas.  

I guess the real question is faith/ science strategy or culture strategy, which do you prefer? I still lean towards arabia but only because faith let's you build units and patronize great people. Arabia is better if China is not in the game. One less competitor for religion, gives you the chance to grab the oracle. If there is a China, it would actually disrupt Brazil too who now has a serious great person competitor. Since it is a refund their ability only takes off after they earn their first GP of any given type. I think I am rambling now and should go eat breakfast.

[aetryn]

Another interesting question is how much reef this map will have. Reef coastal tiles are actually pretty decent (2/1/1), and if they have fish with a fishing boat and a lighthouse they are a ridiculous 5/1/1 -> 5/1/3 with the next Harbor building. The downside is they can't be improved unless they have fish or turtles, and can block placement of harbors.

I think the Fishery improvement is too weak to waste a promotion on, and it leads to the less useful Amusement promotion when, if you promote Liang at all, you probably want Zoning Commissioner for not-quite-as-terrible slow building of districts. Maybe in a scenario where there are no coastal resources nearby for fishing boats. But I find coastal cities generally struggle more for production (and housing) than food production.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

For completeness' sake, let's run through the rest of Japper's options:

Japan




Really strong, actually, on island maps. oledavy won the game going away with Japan in PBEM4 - fighting no less than 3 other players combined at one point. He had the VA, yes, but he built the VA because his science level was absolutely insane. Check it out:




Dave's mega-city is the gold standard for Japanese development so far, I think. Also, his reporting style strongly influenced my own (with a dash of suboptimal's continued cheer even in the face of almost inevitable doom). Worth a hat tip here. 

Anyway, Japan's UU and UB are both pretty lame, but that doesn't matter. Half-cost districts mean that Japan can spam the things everywhere abusing the discount mechanic, and the Meiji Restoration rewards Japan for packing them in close like this, which can lead to truly insane research numbers. Divine Wind is a nice combat boost in most places likely to see heavy fighting on Island Plates, too. Really, this choice shouldn't be overlooked, but I think Japper goes with Indonesia or Australia. 

Nubia




I feel like Woden and I should have gotten more out of Nubia than we did - I don't think he built a single pyramid the whole game, for example. Anyway, Nubia is strong on most maps but not so great on naval ones, I think. The pyramid is terrain-dependent and needs adjacent districts to be really worthwhile, though it does take otherwise useless desert and make one decent tile out of it. 

The +50% ranged units stacks nicely with Agoge, but that doesn't matter hardly at all with Maritime Industries and Press Gangs available to all, so chop overflow isn't especially powerful here. 

The bonus on strategic resource mines I found wasn't really significant at all - you might have 4 iron and nitre combined in your empire with the way the maps are usually balanced, and everything else comes far too late in the game. So this bonus really isn't all its cracked up to be. Finally, the Pitati Archers will obsolete before you can get Shipbuilding to sail and invade someone. 

Persia




I really like Persia, actually, and wouldn't mind giving them a go. The Surprise War bonus is the easiest "declare war" bonuses to achieve, and it's often not practical for everyone on the map to Always War you at once - meaning you can always grab +5 strength and +2 movement. The Immortal is, sadly, a little underpowered and irrelevant in a naval game.

Satrapies is a useful ability in R&F, with trade routes rarer it's a little more powerful. The bonus culture and gold on internal trade routes helps buff one of the biggest weaknesses of internal routes and really could be a powerful engine of culture down the road (too bad you can't do both that and Kumasi's bonus at the same time). Finally, Paradeizas are great UIs that give lots of culture and gold, with really easy adjacencies to land and an early unlock. 

overall, Persia is probably one of the strongest cultural civs in the game, even stronger than Rome. But no real naval or research bonuses, so Japper won't take 'em. 

Zulu




I really like the Zulu, and I was debating taking them if they came up. The weak point, of course, is that they're entirely land based, but I dunno, maybe I could ha ve made 'em work anyway. 

They get a cheap pike replacement that's easier to spam and gains experience more quickly, plus it upgrades into the nice P&S unit which is the ONLY anti-cav unit that's relatively stronger than its era-equivalent melee.

Anyway, the flagship is earlier Corps and Armies (right at the level Sullla was proposing in his Civ 6 balance mod, if I recall correctly) with a +5 buff to 'em. The Ikanda is a cheap Encampment that builds corps and armies freely, WITH a 25% bonus to boot. Furthermore, they get free corps/army upgrades if they capture a city. So, the Zulu are all about the land warfare: Get an early corps out, then use that and a swarm of impis backing it up to snowball through your neighbors to victory. 

Rowain got conquered before he unlocked Mercenaries in Civ 6, but man, imagine a Zulu conquest civ snowballing through the opposite side of the map as Archduke's hordes - that would have been a clash of titans, and I think the Zulu would have won it in the end since their strengthened units directly counter the Mongols'. 

But, I don't really see any way to make them work well on a naval map. Not when Japper has such stronger options available.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Let's do the Archduke's choices today.

The Netherlands




Probably his first or second strongest choice. Alhambram's Netherlands was able to dominate me in culture and keep up in science through the early part of the game, only dropping back when I got my third seowon online, with a JE-purchased library and Natural Philosophy shot me ahead. 

Grote Riverien is a nice ability, but probably slightly weaker on an island map - there aren't many rivers, and what there are tend to be fairly short. Harbors DO trigger a culture bomb, which will be a modest boost considering you typically build them near sea resources, but nothing too game-breaking there. 

Wilhemina's trade route ability doesn't seem too useful. Loyalty pressure was never a thing in PBEM8 - Alhambram and Japper each had a city thrusting into an arc of multiple Korean cities and it would have taken a determined effort on my part to flip either of them, and the Mongolian emergency superseded my efforts in that direction. So +1 loyalty per trade route doesn't seem to useful. +1 culture on international routes to or from Dutch cities is a modest boost - you can send all your traders to Geneva and get, say, +20 science and +10 culture once you have enough traders, not bad at all. But the +10 culture really isn't anything to write home about - a solid culture pantheon will outproduce that. 

De Zeven Provincian is a terror, though. Even if the Archduke has an otherwise entirely vanilla civ, these guys are Frigates with a default +5 strength, spiking to +12 total when attacking cities. They cost the same as a Frigate and can be upgraded from Quads, I believe, so there's no downside here - just a straight frigate upgrade. Since frigates are the key naval combat unit, that's a very nice boost indeed. If I go up against these, I'll need a numbers edge or some other equalizer - a GA, something involving religion? The terracotta army? Because in a straight slugfest these frigates will beat my own navy, and my cities don't stand a chance. Check out here and here for what basic Frigates can do to unprotected cities. 

The polder I'm not sure what to make of. I haven't used the Dutch in singleplayer, so I don't know how viable these are to slap down everywhere. However, on paper they look real nice for the Dutch. Boosted food, production, and housing - nothing devastating, but with 2 builder charges the Archduke gets +1 housing. These things are better than farms, and he can use them to expand out into otherwise useless coastal tiles. Dutch cities have good potential for growth as a result.

So, I think the Dutch have everything working for them on a naval map. They can use what few rivers they have on their starting islands to get a good foundation of science and cultural districts in the early game, while polders let them grow their cities high on limited land. As long as they reach Square Rigging at roughly the same time as everyone else, the 7 Province unit will be an excellent unit to go on a conquering spree with. Maybe I can try and sic 'em on the Indonesian jong fleet. 

Aztec




The Archduke would normally be really scary with these guys, but thankfully Eagle Warriors are neutered by the island start. They won't be able to reach too many city-states or neighboring civs, so the chances of a rush with EWs is very small. The builder -> district ability is great towards the end of the game, especially when districts become extremely expensive, and it's a nice alternative to chopping, since resources for that will be limited on a naval map. 

The Tlachi still isn't intimidating. It adds +1 culture now, too, but the trouble is having multiple tlachis means multiples of otherwise useless Entertainment districts, and there's much better ways to get +1 culture per city! You want one or two entertainment districts that cover multiple cities, because apart from amenities the districts are worthless. 

However, the luxury bonus is sneaky good. The Aztecs could have a quietly enhanced navy that no one really counts on, making their ships hit as hard as Indonesia's Jongs or the Dutch's 7 Provinces. 

Still, the luxury thing and the builder thing is all the Aztecs really have going for them. They're a strong civ, but not the best choice on a naval map.

Sumeria




Why take Sumeria if you can't murder someone with war carts? (Seriously, Rowain, why?)

Ziggurats are nice improvements, but need rivers to really shine and I think rivers will be limited on the map. 

Epic Quest can be really good, but it'll be harder to find and clear barb outposts in the early game, since you're limited to your starting island until Shipbuilding. 

And I've never seen Legacy of Enkidu matter. :/ 

Georgia




Georgia just doesn't seem to have a lot going for it. It was trivial for everyone to chain golden ages together in PBEM8 - I did a poor job of earning era points, but everyone else did awesome. So that bonus isn't so good. Renaissance Walls are too expensive to be worth building, even for +3 faith. Protectorate Wars could be good, but all you get is doubled faith production. Faith is nice, but it's not production - why is this bonus so obviously worse than Australia's or Scotland's?  Finally, the khevsur isn't as pathetic as it was - it's now cheaper and has 45 strength instead of 40 - but still, a late-arriving sword that really only thrives in hills? Maybe good on some maps, but not this one. 


Pericles




The Archduke has already played Pericles and doesn't like to repeat civs, plus Pericles is definitely the weaker choice in multiplayer. It's really hard to take advantage of Surrounded by Glory when everyone just murders city states as a matter of course. I like the Acropolis, but theater squares are a weak district in general - you don't want too many - and the hoplite is an okay unit at best - nothing to write home about. 

Extra wildcard slot is nice, but not worth taking this civ over stronger choices. 

Scotland




I think Scotland might quietly be the Archduke's strongest choice, and it'd be nice to see him take a builder civ for once. We haven't seen them in PBEM yet, so recap:

- Happy cities get +5% science/production, and +1 GS/GE point. Ecstatic cities get double that. The yield bonus is nice - but I can land that, too, as Arabia :D - but the real kicker is the bonus GS/GE point. If Scotland has anywhere near as many campuses as anyone else - and why wouldn't they? - they'll win most of the GS races hands down. This civ REALLY wants the Colosseum, and if Archduke takes them he'd be thrilled if China (as is likely) goes unpicked. Grabbing Zen Meditation with a late religion would also be a decent play, I think. 

- Highlander: Ranger replacement unit, boosted combat strength, stronger in rough terrain. But...who builds rangers? This unit doesn't matter (in b4 Archduke wipes me out with a ranger rush). 

- Golf Course: Okay, it SOUNDS goofy, but it's a great UI. It gives +1 amenity (to sync with Scottish Enlightenment), +2 gold, +1 appeal, and +1 culture if it's next to the City Center, +1 more if it's next to an entertainment complex. Probably won't see the last bit too often, but bonus gold, amenities, and culture makes this like a silk tile you can have at every city. You can only have 1 per city, otherwise all Scottish cities would be Ecstatic all the time, but still, between this and the Colosseum and other sources I think if Archduke plays his cards right he can have +10% science and production and +2 GS/GE points all game long. 

- Bannockburn: Wars of Liberation grant +100% production and +2 movement to all units. Like Australia's ability, but triggered at will! ...almost. First, you need to have a declared friend or ally. Then, they need to lose a city. THEN, you need to declare war before the conqueror of the city declares war on you. With the way Civ VI multiplayer works, Archduke MIGHT get to use this once. 

I'll try and endeavor to be his friend. He'll want friends, right? He has to, if he wants to liberate anything! 

Anyway, Scotland is really, really strong on science. No specific naval bonuses like the Dutch get, but they could be near Korea-levels of research with a little effort. 

I think the Archduke takes Scotland, with the Netherlands a close second. The other 4 seem very unlikely.

[Ichabod]

Ded-lurking for now.

(I'm speaking with the base game in mind, I don't own R&F)

I think Rome is the best choice. Free monuments are just that good. You never build monuments early game, because it's suboptimal play losing prod on no % bonus builds early. So, you keep the monument advantage for a long time (and it speeds up the crucial PP). Legions will always help and melee units are better now with the availability of double oligarchy bonus. Baths are amazing. 

Arabia is interesting. Worth noticing that Madrassas are avaiable at Theocracy, not education, so they open up earlier, in most cases. I think you hit the nail on the head when saying tech will be very important in this setup, as reaching Frigates is a turning point in the game. So, Arabia does seem to have a good sinnergy pack with that.

Here's how I'd play them. You need a natural generated Prophet, no doubt about that. One of your first two cities has to be coastal, so you can 100% chop into a HS, by building a galley (perhaps 50% chop into a unit is better, it something to think about). I think you need to avoid districts techs at all costs (only go Astrology -> Writing), so you can build 2/3 HS normal cost and 2/3 Campus discounted cost (screw other district types). Remember to save the best spots to Campus, as Madrassas will convert that adjacency to faith as well. That's a great base to start from, and I think you can make a Jesuit Education into Square Rigging beeline work pretty well this way. Personally, I think JE and DotF are the best options. You gamble on getting Church Property as 3rd belief, but losing that is no biggie. And the worship building is irrelevant, mostly everything works. You'll head to Theology soon, as it opens Madrassas, so it'll also open Temples, so you can buy next level beliefs.

Ideally, Sqaure Rigging gets you your first territorial expansion and Steel gives you the game. Favouring science seems to be the key to winning here. Stay focused, time your districts to get discounts, use faith to cheat production. DotF will make you survive the frigate era against those Frigate UUs and when you reach late game naval tech before anyone, just plaster them all. 

[aetryn]

Ded-lurking for now.

(I'm speaking with the base game in mind, I don't own R&F)

I think Rome is the best choice. Free monuments are just that good. You never build monuments early game, because it's suboptimal play losing prod on no % bonus builds early. So, you keep the monument advantage for a long time (and it speeds up the crucial PP). Legions will always help and melee units are better now with the availability of double oligarchy bonus. Baths are amazing. 

Arabia is interesting. Worth noticing that Madrassas are avaiable at Theocracy, not education, so they open up earlier, in most cases. I think you hit the nail on the head when saying tech will be very important in this setup, as reaching Frigates is a turning point in the game. So, Arabia does seem to have a good sinnergy pack with that.

Here's how I'd play them. You need a natural generated Prophet, no doubt about that. One of your first two cities has to be coastal, so you can 100% chop into a HS, by building a galley (perhaps 50% chop into a unit is better, it something to think about). I think you need to avoid districts techs at all costs (only go Astrology -> Writing), so you can build 2/3 HS normal cost and 2/3 Campus discounted cost (screw other district types). Remember to save the best spots to Campus, as Madrassas will convert that adjacency to faith as well. That's a great base to start from, and I think you can make a Jesuit Education into Square Rigging beeline work pretty well this way. Personally, I think JE and DotF are the best options. You gamble on getting Church Property as 3rd belief, but losing that is no biggie. And the worship building is irrelevant, mostly everything works. You'll head to Theology soon, as it opens Madrassas, so it'll also open Temples, so you can buy next level beliefs.

Ideally, Sqaure Rigging gets you your first territorial expansion and Steel gives you the game. Favouring science seems to be the key to winning here. Stay focused, time your districts to get discounts, use faith to cheat production. DotF will make you survive the frigate era against those Frigate UUs and when you reach late game naval tech before anyone, just plaster them all. 

Culture is now even more important for the early governor titles, which is why Rome is still a strong contender even with no naval bonuses.

You don't want to avoid unlocking your Government District (it's on the way to PP, it's cheap, and you'll want the building at some point) and it's basically impossible to avoid for long. It can be built quickly, but it REALLY messes up the math for getting the discount on the third copy of a district.

Base Game: You have HS and Campus unlocked only. You build 3 Holy sites in 3 cities, first, then 3 Campuses. You'll get the discount on every campus.
R&F: You have HS and Campus and Government districts unlocked. You build 3 Holy sites in 3 cities and your Government district in your capital. Now your first Campus is discounted (0 < 4/3) as is your second (1<5/3), but your third isn't discounted (2 = 6/3).
This happens basically because the Government district counts as a type for averaging purposes but you can never build more than one. Instead, you'd have to build a 4th Holy Site before your third Campus, and discounting the 4th campus would require another 2 Holy Sites (3 < 10/3, where 10 = 6 holy sites, 3 campuses, and 1 Government district).

But the basic principle applies. The first 3-4 cities should start with a HS, then a Campus, then a Harbor when they hit 7 pop, except the capital. And yes, we should avoid Currency and Bronze Working for as long as possible, though once you have exhausted the bonus you're likely going to be able to earn (maybe 3 Campuses tops), you might as well.

I'd be happy to see either Arabia or Rome. The ability to faith buy at Divine Right (instead of Reformed Church in the base game), plus potentially buy settlers and builders as soon as the age rolls to Classical makes faith stronger in R&F. Arabia's bonuses just make it sweeter. OTOH, the Korea run in PBEM8 was pretty science-heavy culture-light, and a change up could be good as well.

Edit: And ironically, in PBEM8, Magnus was strong enough that it WAS worth building the monuments early game, just because it accelerated your production engine that much. Is the nerfed Magnus still worth building monuments for? That's an interesting question. Either way, Rome getting them for free is awesome.

[Ichabod]

Government District should probably not count on the district formulas, just like Aqueducts. But it's no surprise the Devs didn't make it work that way. It's the same thing with the Magnus chop being multiplicative with other % bonuses, not additive, as in other cases of the base game (vikings + % ship card). Different devs that don't know the inner workings of the system result in similar cases working differently.

In Civ 5, there was only one building that gave +% food that worked on base food, not surplus food (which is a world of a difference). It was Temple of Artemis, a wonder released through a DLC. Again, different teams, that don't know the rules of the game.

Can you build 2 Holy Sites and place 2 discounted Campus before enabling Government Plaza? Can you open up Magnus with Early Empire instead of State Workforce? I can definetely see a world where you get a 2nd city pretty early (perhaps scout/warrior/slinger -> settler), go for two galley chops into HSs (perhaps using just one worker and giving up on the Craftsmanship Eureka -> Agoge isn't that great when you can build galleys with 100%), and grow both cities to size 4 (so, placing 2 discounted Campus) before finishing State Workforce (or place a 3rd city for the second Campus).

A lot of speculation this early, I hope I'm not cluttering the thread too much.