[Mjmd #51 No Players] Mjmd Rambles - a civ story

[Mjmd]

Ya higher upside Elizabeth. I'm still questioning myself; as I'm sure others are. Mind I'm sure the lurkers and the more experienced people will just at least give me credit for being 1st to pick financial having the 7th pick...

Anyways. Civ techs I'm looking for civs with either wheel or mining (would prefer agr, but can't so shrug). Just reduce or eliminate wasted worker turns. Tried some test games with Holy Rome (different leader but still) and its so dependent on starting resources. I don't want to go to war for a long time, so mainly want defensive unique unit and a good unique building. Of the 0 pt civs there are only 2 that really have both a UU and UB and 1 or both of those starting techs.

Mali vs Korea (again Mali SHOULD be taken, but as only 3 people before I'm up you never know)
-Starting techs: Mali has both economic techs I want; however, if I want a religion Korea starts with mysticism. May depend on where I want to put my 1st city if I want the religion, but at least gives me that option.
-UU: Korea has the clear edge here. Skirmishers (archer) are fine cheap military for HR and against barbs, but not really good in for PvP battles long term (if it was a tigher map would be better). Hwacha (cats) are one of the most built units that have a long shelf life, so better cat sounds great especially if Prats come calling.
-UB: Mali has the edge here as the forge replacement is better than the uni replacement (both as far as effect and when you get access to them). Only downside is I might be tempted to try to oracle for them earlier, when I don't think that should be my plan, and I'm pretty sure will be someone elses

[Mjmd]

I think Ramk gambled that one of the two remaining fin leaders would fall back to him when he picked Mali and when they didn't he picked Wang. SD posting right after Ramk picked Wang tells me he was hoping Wang would fall all the way to him (or just coincidence). Man I would not have thought the last 4 people to pick would get the 4 available fin leaders (well actually I thought Wang of China might actually happen this game with 10, but I think Ramks gamble stopped that)

I picked my runner up Korea and am decently happy with it. Slow leader slightly slow civ what could go wrong.

[Mjmd]

Would love a dedlurker, but ah well. Vague plans and random analysis it is. Concise micro plans well executed.......

On to the vague analysis:



Will do an in depth analysis of picks in a bit. First thing that struck me is I have a good chance / should probably get an early religion. Lizzy lacks happy and early culture. My initial plan was just build libraries (maybe a monument if I had to), but looking at who will want one early makes me think I should take. Extra payoff I get to go organized religion for some good empire building. Will partially depend on surrounding territory and the answer to this question. Anyone have a good understanding of where a religion will pop? My understanding is that it will always pick not the capital if it can and after that the odds are based on city size (bigger better) and if it has other religions.

[Mjmd]

I'm going to do this in sets of 3 I think. If you have questions or comments about my thought process please ask! Both so I don't feel like I'm talking to myself and also to increase that post count!

My broadest very general sense of civ4 is that you either want to get more land to get more tech and/or get more tech to get more land. I'll get to my stuff last, but you can probably guess where Lizzy of Korea falls.

General notes, you can see I included a list of traits taken (I should have put the pt value in, but they are in order from highest to lowest as is). All 4 Fin leaders taken ...... as 4 last picks. I'm probably going to make a lot of comments about stuff and just put this at the end of most of below so I don't have to retype a bunch "this isn't a bad plan except they could have taken a financial leader". Mind I'm a noob, take everything with a handful of salt.

SD - Rome 1st pick. I've already said some on this. Clear plan get more land to then to get more tech and have more production. Dubious morality of a vet picking a civ to go crush some noobs aside, an interesting plan. Two ways he could play. Just be a big gorilla, push people around without really fighting and take land via settling (what I would do). But SD didn't 1st pick Rome to play a builder game. I'm assuming Shaka was who he had in mind all along; although I do wonder as he posted right after Wang was taken. Clearly do not want to start near. Success depending on map and fighting skills of poor green he starts next to. If you have enough land you can start catching up in tech and more land more production to go conquer more land. Hidden cost of picking Rome is he has to tech Iron working early. While map makers have certainly tried making IW necessary earlier before, its not usually a tech you want early.

GKC - India was my 1st pick, but I figured a vet would want to play with unmodded India. Only person to pick organized. As he's a vet, makes me think maintenance is as bad as I think (I was thinking I was just bad; although both can be true). India thanks to their UU can punch out a civ pretty fast both wide and tall. So he gets to try to both have land and tech. I was going to go DeGuale with India, but that was probably the green in my talking. Napoleon makes more sense if you want to chop out an empire pretty fast and not go bankrupt. He's the most likely player to want a religion that also starts with Mysticism. This would be a good question for a dedlurker, but maybe a regular lurker can answer. On realms when do religions generally start falling? I wouldn't be the worst thing if I had to get Judaism, as I want organized religion, but still a good question.

Giroflorens - There is something to be said for being the first to pick an industrious leader as it wards off others from picking. That being said I'm not sure exactly what the plan is. Best I can tell is he's going to go for Mids (pyramids if your green) and try to use that with spiritual? That doesn't even make sense as if your going mids your doing it for representation. You can also tell I wasn't familiar with Persia as I had to put in notes. I want to start next to.

[Mjmd]

Vanrober - again there is an argument for picking good civs after good leaders have been taken ect ect financial. Very clear turn land into tech strategy with a nice UB to allow for a larger empire. Questionable pick, still don't want to start near.

Lazteuq - I had Pericles as my 4th pick. So let me explain why I was considering, and assume Lazteuq thought the same. One of the more broken things you can do in base BTS is to chain golden ages especially with a larger empire. Creative helps you grab more cities which then you can go bonkers with later. Also obvious synergy between creative and philosophic with cheap libraries and universities. He shouldn't be attacking early, so even if he gets 1 more city near me, not the worst neighbor. Important to note he should prioritize Mausoleum (even more than me as he doesn't have a fallback plan going long). France is a fine pick for where he fell on the wheel. Great starting techs and musketeer makes defending easier but also helps you to fork with knights.

Amicalola - saw this combo in PB44. Its possible this combo is better than some of the financial leaders, but not when Hannibal is available (again my own pick is questionable will discuss later). Very clear land into tech strategy. I would expect fast expansion and then wait to war until at least medieval period. Wouldn't be the worst neighbor. While he does start with mysticism, since he's essentially half creative he doesn't want for the culture at least. Therefore no EARLY religion.

[Mjmd]

Its nice that both Germans are in this next section so I can lament I'll probably never know their thought process on picks as neither has created a thread yet. Skipping myself for a post.

Ramkhamhaeng - I've already commented that I think he gambled getting Hannibal or Ragnar back and took the best civ remaining first. Only poor Wang was left however when pick came back, and Mint obviously pairs well with financial. However, protective skirmishers should make even prats think twice before cats. He should play a techer game for a while, so would be fine being next to.

El Grillo - WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER! Man were these guys posting a lot prior to their pick. Their jaws probably kept dropping. This is another combo we saw in PB44. They can use their UU to intimidate rivals into getting more land and take advantage with financial. Hannibal is the safest financial leader to take by far and its actually shocking he fell past pick 3 (SD had picked him in PB44 so assuming thats why he didn't, GKC wanted India which is both fun and powerful, and then Giraflorens   , repeat until maybe me maybe...). I'm really curious to look in their thread after all this was their original plan was.

Plemo - took the best leader remaining so pt to him, but then the dutch! One of us is right about this map, but we are on vastly opposite sides. Even if he's right though both payoffs are sooo late. According to him, hes played in a few games, but not a ton, so not a vet but not a green either. Would not mind starting next to.

[Mjmd]

So Lizzy. There is game theory that states if you know your disadvantaged you should take risks with high upsides to win. Lizzy has a ton of upside. Financial is obviously great and philosophic allows for a super early academy among other applications. As stated earlier definitely a turn tech into land play. I have practically no multiplayer battle experience, so the easiest way to win a war is to bring a rifle to a knight fight. the major downside to lizzy aside from no early economic traits is that I also lost out on agriculture and those civs in my pick further slowing my start. I've played through some test games and the early turns are definitely going to take some major simming to get to a reasonable level.

I have a feeling I'm going to be placing a lot of cities in sub-optimal spots on hills that also have food in their first ring as I approach my opponents lands. Pink dot holy city? Will have to see the map. I'm going to have to scrape to get to the same number of cities as some of my faster neighbors. Mind part of my gamble is that some of my neighbors will also be slower due to their greenness

Questions and comments very appreciated.

[Mjmd]

Commodore your an aweful aweful person.



4 potential plains hills (counting 1 I'm standing on, that could potentially be starting city spot. I'm sure the current spot is fine..... However, who wants to bet 1 or multiple of the other plains hills is better. Man I'm going to end up rolling dice which way to scout. What a masterpiece of vision manipulation. WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS TO GREENS!!!!!!

[Mjmd]

This may be an easier puzzle then first appears. 1st off El Grillo's question about the greens getting 1f more I think I figured out already. An especially clever mapmaker instead of changing the type of food resource would have given the greens a floodplains instead of a grassland. Also, his question confirms starts are mirrored or very similar.

Now lets talk about Realms Beyond starts. Realms loves sharing food resources with their cap and I don't think I've ever seen less than 3 food resources. Obviously Commodore has hidden the other 2 via clever hills and forests. However I would NOT expect the other 2 to be together. So one is NE and one is SE probably on one of those grassland tiles (I don't think he would have put on the plains hill to the SE, at least thats the gamble I'll take)

So current plains hill has a lot of hills in the BFC. Plains hill to the NE moves us away from the river. Bad for financial and bureaucracy. The plains hill to the NW is near the sea, so even if it has food resources it forces me to tech fishing and waste worker turns (Rome and the Dutch will have interesting decisions if start is mirrored ish). There is a river up there, but I'll assume I can save it for a future city. Therefore the only place I should scout is the plains hill to the SW I believe by moving the scout to the grassland hill. I would be betting heavily on a food in the fog on those grasslands SE. That is moving out of range of the only visible food! so would have to see at least 1 resource.  It would give swap a river floodplain and grassland vs 2 regular grasslands if settle in place.  Still thinking, but will probably move to the grassland hill to scout.

Shoutout to Commodore for this awefully evil to greens puzzle. Also note all 3 other hills plains are forested so you give up a future chop if you settle there. EDIT (also it looks like total forests to chop in BFC would probably end up being less.)

[Mjmd]

Well I was the 7th player to finish my turn. I'm no master at tracking PBSPY, but it looks like all 6 before me settled in place. I did not.





At least Commodore wasn't too much of a pain about it. I half expected the 2nd food resource to be hidden behind the forest the deer is on. Double deer start should help reduce wasted worker turns. Financial on a river is good; not too much to say there. You might say, but there are 2 tundra in the BFC! Well its not like I was going to work 9 hill tiles anyways. Obvious cost is I just lost a ton of forests to chop in my bfc.  I also assume the settle in place capital had 3 food resources, but prices you pay for more money more science. 2nd or 3rd city can go grab whatever is over there and be a nice Heroic Epic city and use that food to work all those hills.