[90 Spoilers] Saxony's splendour and Miguelusten's glory

[AdrienIer]

Wait why is Shangian yellow now ?

[Mjmd]

There is nothing worse on Realms Beyond than under reporting a war, except NOT reporting a war 

[Miguelito]

Wait why is Shangian yellow now ?

By the power of a credible threat

And Ari giving me too much credit

So in the first place, Ari may have had some bad luck with his vacation replacement (Dulland, who is a rock solid player in any case), or given unclear instructions. Remember when he bullied me into not improving horses? Well when he could not prevent it any longer unless by declaring war, before I even started on the road to connect the resource my scout spotted a spear on the way to Shangian - which then suddenly stopped halfway. Maybe the idea was zone defense against naufragar/Hagen, or maybe it was just miscommunication. Well you can't play zone defense when the other guy can one turn you at any moment, go figure.

However, when I saw the spear I had decided to not plan for a hopeless attack. But, seeing as the spear got stuck in the snow, his other cities being very low on units (he has quite high power though. Presumably some action on another landmass?), and him whipping Shangian to size one for a lighthouse I decided to try a spontaneous attack.

The overflow from whipping the barracks in Chemnitz was enough for a chariot after the 33/35 axe, so I grabbed the latter, together with the city garrison and one that happened to just arrive from the capital and moved up:



With the chariot this little group would have a 4 in 5 chance of taking the city, according to Vodka. If things went badly, I would be able to drywhip a second chariot the next turn (unless he moved his scout onto the grass forest, which he didn't). For what it's worth, without the chariot this army is hopeless against the fortified elite axes. Which is why I didn't expect him to accept my offer of peace for the city.

The worst case would have him reinforcing the city by galleon, enabling him to attack out against our feeble axes with his supermen. But that seemed quite unlikely, and I actually think he does not have another port on that sea.

Opening next turn he had whacked the Quechua and:



So I can proudly proclaim that I lost the battle but won the war .

Notice that he did not see a chariot of ours. If he was paying attention, he knew that one of the axes was from the galley. But if now he assumed that I had planned for any of this (which I didn't ), he could expect a chariot hiding on the galley, besides the one finishing in Chemnitz. And against two chariots he would have been looking really bad. So he keeps his two elite units and the worker, while I get the city with the monument and the lighthouse, and no revolt:




And that was our merry little war .

Just to make it clear, had he had the spear in range, or another axe in the city, or even a second pop point (ok, there's going second) I wouldn't have done this. But now, thanks to these favourable circumstances, a big part of the pressure that I felt was strangling me is lifted.

Note that we still have less than our "fair share" of land due to naufragar shamelessly grabbing our second silver source. Watching the other players merrily trading their precious metals between each other, that hurts. A lot. But I'm not going to do anything about it for now. naufragar is feeding me most of the trade routes, and while I could probably replace them with Indian ones, that will no longer be enough come Currency. nauf also has settled himself to seven cities lately, after going quite slow earlier. Imp surely helped to get a number of settlers out in quick succession. And if we were to fight things might not settle so easily. I have been told (not least by himself ) that he isn't the easiest character...

Come Currency (7 turns after the current one, I hope), I want to pay Ari some indemnization, to hopefully settle things and have no bad blood going forward. What would be an appropriate sum? It should not be insultingly low, but also not look like a tribute. I'm taking suggestions.

In development, I whipped away 2 fin coasts and a red face in Leipzig for a library:




The city has too much food even for 6->4 whip cycles. So it occurred to me that it could make a specialist for a GA, after the prophet comes out of Meißen. The scientists could be joined by a priest from a temple (happy wouldn't come amiss), merchants from a market (most probably too expensive), or an engineer from a forge (clearly the best, but also latest).

Leipzig and Chemnitz have happy problems, while the other cities are either too young to be there yet, or in the case of the starting island, share so little food that whip anger actually weans off occasionally.
I feel like that is not enough yet to justify an anrachy revolt to convert to Hinduism. But maybe before the GA enough cities will join them. Can't see me revolting into OR though, just no.


Much neglected Freiberg finally got its terrace chopped (but already popped borders thanks to religion).



Question is whether to use the first chop for a worker or an axe pair. The question is related to how we go about the jungle island. I actually have a settler in the pipeline at Meißen, and it's close to hammer decay (don't know how close exactly ). However we may not need him all that soon - so far we've seen nothing but jungle, and not even seafood. The question then is if a city that can work just trade routes plus a Fin coast is worth it, if even just to lay a claim to the land, and be able to whip a terrace 30 turns later. Probably I'll do it (after Currency, sure enough).

that would also demand of us to research IW after Currency, not sure if before or after MC though. Remember, we're Ind (I easily forget. It will be a null trait for the first 100 turns).

[Mjmd]

Come Currency (7 turns after the current one, I hope), I want to pay Ari some indemnization, to hopefully settle things and have no bad blood going forward. What would be an appropriate sum? It should not be insultingly low, but also not look like a tribute. I'm taking suggestions.

Wait. He took a city in your sphere, caused a cold war that delayed your development, and he popped a quencha on the way out. And you want to pay him????  Open borders and whatever the German equivalent of fish for fish is is FAR more than he deserves. It was a stupid city for him to take and you shouldn't reward that kind of stupid.

[Amicalola]

Come Currency (7 turns after the current one, I hope), I want to pay Ari some indemnization, to hopefully settle things and have no bad blood going forward. What would be an appropriate sum? It should not be insultingly low, but also not look like a tribute. I'm taking suggestions.

Wait. He took a city in your sphere, caused a cold war that delayed your development, and he popped a quencha on the way out. And you want to pay him????  Open borders and whatever the German equivalent of fish for fish is is FAR more than he deserves. It was a stupid city for him to take and you shouldn't reward that kind of stupid.

If it would cost you more to capture the city than the reward for acquiring it, I don't know if I agree. Might makes right in the civ world imo (although it is a lot more complicated than any surface rule could cover). Sometimes you can't provoke a war and stay in the game. Looks to me like Ari's mistake was just leaving the spear behind, as Mig says. Congrats on the city, Mig!

Are you planning to get MC soon? Those IND forges are busted even without metals.

[Miguelito]

Wait. He took a city in your sphere, caused a cold war that delayed your development, and he popped a quencha on the way out. And you want to pay him????  Open borders and whatever the German equivalent of fish for fish is is FAR more than he deserves. It was a stupid city for him to take and you shouldn't reward that kind of stupid.

Imo, after how it played out, the picture is far rosier than you paint it. He paid maintenance for the city all the while it was basically useless, and build a pasture, a cottage, half a road for an instant trade route, a tremendously useful lighthouse and a mildly useful monument, expending two (or 3?) chops and a whip that I don't get a red face for. Mind that worker labour is what I'm most lacking still- I've got 3 for now 7 cities (really need to fix that). It coast me the axe training against the barbarian workers, a bit of capture gold , and a few turns that my worker was used inefficiently due to his threat. Honestly I'm not sure that I would've been better off if he had just left me alone.
And with Agg he can still very much hurt me, even if I should be able to fight him off/ weather the siege. I don't want conflict with him in the next 100 turns at least. So I think some 50 or 60 gold together with fish/fish would not be a bad investment if it secure good relations. The question is just if it will.

Amica, yes MC is very high on my list. The question is just if I need IW first, because I want to expand into those islands which appear to be pure jungle. Oh yeah, I really need some more workers pronto.

[Mjmd]

The situation you describe generously could be considered even. You got the best case scenario, but that scenario was far from likely most of the time. IE he put resources into the city for development but not the resources to defend it. If the lighthouse had been another two units you would have had to deal with until cats or you built a large army of axes.

[Miguelito]

I'm not saying that he was nice to me, far from it. I got very lucky (or he was careless) to get this outcome. The question now is, does he hold a grudge over it, and if so, can I deflect his ire at a moderate price? In the end I have to ask not what I consider fair, but what he does, and then how far I'm willing to go with it.



Currency research started finally. Nobody I know has it yet. Somebody does have Metal Casting, but I'm not too worried even if it were naufragar. Maybe it's civac reaching for Cho Ko Nus? That would be great, I'm fine with any plausible target that I have contact with . Acutally it's not unlikely, with Qin he has all the incentives. He'd possibly bulb machinery, around t125 if he goes for the pure engineer.

[Miguelito]

Somebody does have Metal Casting, but I'm not too worried even if it were naufragar. Maybe it's civac reaching for Cho Ko Nus? That would be great, I'm fine with any plausible target that I have contact with . Acutally it's not unlikely, with Qin he has all the incentives. He'd possibly bulb machinery, around t125 if he goes for the pure engineer.

And as if to confirm, right after my post he whipped every single one of his 5 cities for 2 pop . My scout is already on his way to him after defogging all of nauf's territory, so we'll see if we find forges.

Speaking of nauf, a picture laden with irony:


Is it that naufragar stole our silver with his 3rd city, delaying his own expansion southwards so much that Empirate was able to steal his gems in turn? Yes, but the more subtle point here is who the victim of the affair is. Empi is golden, naufragar got himself silver and gems, so he came out somewhat neutral, and the one who suffers is yours truly.
Founding that city on the coast, on flatland is quite ballsy of Empi in any case. I hope it will tempt nauf sufficiently to start a long and bloody war over it. I probably should have some force ready to take my silver (or persuade him to sell the city) when that happens. If naufragar can't take the city he's without horses, that must also be good for something.

Further west, here's how Plemo is smarter than me, again:


I was feeling pretty happy about being the first to found on the western coast (Kalkutta is from t89), hoping to be a step ahead for that jungle island. But no, he has that canal. At least I learned that wecan build a canal yet with 2 forts. I thought it only worked with single forts or city-fort. Anyyway, it costs an awful lot of worker turns that we don't have.

I am planning for the jungle island regardless:


However, I am again practising my patience. The settler is actually whipped already and sitting in the queue in Meißen, and this galley could finish 2 turns earlier on t92. But I'm really tight on the 5 turns Currency, and sending out the galley now I'd miss out on the coast commerce and pay more unit upkeep and even supply. So the galley with an axe and settler will leave borders just the turn after finishing the tech. I want to get a foot down even if it's all jungle; two trade routes and a coast should more or less pay for the city. If there's a lake or maybe some resource tile inland all the better.

Up north Ari does not have a western port yet:


As I learned he can build a canal though. However in the newly christened Wurzen I am also going slower, building the terrace before a galley. I also was reminded that barb galleys exist. All the more reason to go for MC. At least there will not be any nets to pillage anytime soon.

I also decided to at least try OB/fish-fish with Ari. Not that I really want to expend that protection money.


With the pressure in the north somewhat lifted, I am allowing myself to think a bit more ahead. I've found two goals that I want to pursue:

1. Kill naufragar. I don't look forward to fighting him, but I fear there's no way around it. If he bulbs (Sully!) Astronomy before we have it we're literally dead in the water. It's also the only expansion option that doesn't leave us on a coast that's necessarily dominated by the enemy's fleet. So this must be the overarching goal, both for survival and relevance in this game. So, how do we do that?
   • Crossbows/triremes. We currently may have a light tech edge - he birthed a GS this turn and bulbed - assumedly maths - but we have already started on Currency, and outside of bulbs have better research thanks to Fin - at least until his fresh cottages mature to villages, and that takes a while. Our next scheduled techs are MC and IW. We might even get a low odds engineer, that would make things really interesting. However I doubt that we'd have enough of an edge to really cripple him. Might not get further than Bursa. We'll also be busy settling jungle islands. So this seems more like a vulturing option, if he gets into serious conflict with Empirate or Hagen.
     
   • Achieve technological superiority with Fin and the shrine - but with Phi he has good chances to keep up throughout the middle ages. Knights then? Bulb Astronomy ourselves, sufficiently ahead of him?
     
   • Rifles seem too late, if Astronomy means sudden death.
     
2. Build AP, so everybody spreads our religion and we swim in money. Theocracy over OR might also be justifiable, if we can rely on shrine spreads (and prevent Plemo's religion(s) spreading this way). Needing an option to bulb Astro probably means that we don't bulb Theo though (getting the second prophet was always looking quite difficult). The question is then, does that take too much focus away from objective 1, or does the economy/MfG boost help it? Also Plemo might just found Christianity while we are on MC, and we would need to think if we want to chase him or find another use for Ind. Note that we haven't seen stone or marble yet, and eg TGL and Parthenon also look quite strong on this map, as does unnerfed MoM, always.
   

I'll have mapped out naufragar rather soon, including the starting island, and will give an overview from my perspective then.

[Mjmd]

I'm pretty sure you are wrong on forts as I tried city fort fort city recently and it went no where. He is RefSteels expiation from my PB63 thread:

RefSteel

A canal only works for two tiles

Also, a fort only works as a canal if it next to water itself, so you can go water-fort-city-fort-water.

This is almost right.  The actual rule is:  A boat can only enter a fort or city if it's next to a body of water.  So fort-city-fort only works if there's a water tile (even a one-tile lake) in one of the city's eight first-ring tiles.  But you can go fort-fort-fort-city-fort-city-fort or whatever if you have little lakes in the right spots to keep the chain going, but you can't go fort-city-fort if the city is landlocked.

Any thoughts on going to kill Plemo maybe with a couple of allies so he doesn't win another game?