Suboptimal IV: Indonesian Insanity

[suboptimal]

Yeah, one of the levied warriors is going to have to babysit Methone. I don't know what happens if a levied unit is in a city when the levy expires, nor do I want to find out. We will have a Carthaginian warrior in the area so we could put that one in the city and send the Nan Madol units north.

I did know about the 50% loyalty on taking a city -- that's actually necessary because otherwise the city is at 100% enemy loyalty and flips immediately. If we can get the loyalty penalty to less than -4 or so we should have enough time to turn on the capital.

Amenities won't be an issue -- we'll have 8 to go around and have six cities (4 ours, two Macedon), each only requiring one amenity (the capital needs two until Pop 7 but gets 1 from the palace). If anything I'll be curious to see if the amenities engine places an extra amenities in Methone. A Happy city earns +3 loyalty according to Victoria's post.

I don't want to have to slot it (because I want Agoge/Maritime Industries and Revelation running) but Limitanei would give an additional +2 loyalty with a garrisoned unit. However, I don't expect Woden to get to a normal age, so we should be OK there.

One other note: in R&F the +4 CS bonus for Oligarchy applies to land melee, anti-cav and naval melee ships.

Part of me is also thinking that if the capital has no garrison and is coastal that we should hit that with two swords, a warrior and a galley while the three warriors and the sword harass (or attack) Methone. Methone and the capital are about equidistant from Alexandria and even if the units wouldn't be enough to take Methone they should be enough to kill anything outside the city. I think that doesn't change sending the further Cathaginian warrior towards Methone (arrives at the borders T53) but it's also not a decision we need to make for another couple of turns - I'll be going on the empty desert hill next turn and we'll see what that shows us.

[suboptimal]

Well, now I know why I haven't seen a save in over 24 hours.... On one hand, I could say that I understand Rowain's frustration if he's been put into a bad situation and wants out. On the other hand, my "internal wiring" is such that I view playing in one of these things as making a commitment to the other players (and to the community at large, I suppose), that you're going to gut it out even when things reach a level of dismal crapitude. Having previous documented, in detail, my first two attempts and demises in these things as my game went from "la la la I'm playing" to "ah, crap" it's evident as to which side of the fence I fall on the current situation. I have to suspect that the fact that he is in two other PBEMs, both of which he's in a now-hopeless position, is generally killing his enthusiasm. I also have to suspect that if Archduke left he conversation at "can you keep playing while you look for a replacement" instead of tossing in a jab about his position in those other games the current conversation would be different. Besides, he hasn't seen a true gift from the mapmakers unless he goes through this thread...

For the lurkers, I did see the part that Rowain posted and deleted (Post 96) where he complained about there being 4 city-states within 10 tiles of Archduke's start position and one is about to fall, plus Archduke's inital response in Post 97. I've only seen the edited versions of 98-100 so don't know what was said or what spoiling information was present. I also don't really consider the information I did get to be...news(?)... because with what I knew about the map layout I figured there'd be more city-states "over there" and Archduke going after city-states is expected behavior, to say the least.

[suboptimal]

Since it appears we'll be getting underway again shortly I reopened my EoT46 save to look around and verify timelines....a few minor revisions:

- The tile NE of Carthage is hills - we won't be able to upgrade there until T51, then advance per the plan to get to Alexandria on Turn 54 (one turn later than diagrammed). The warrior currently fortified on the stone will be fully healed by the time the upgrade occurs.
- The southern warrior will go south of the mountains, go NE to the area E of the iron, cross the sugar marsh and reach the forest W of the Encampment on Turn 53.
- I'll have the embarked warriors E and SE of the Encampment on Turn 48 and will shift them to the sheep hill and E of the Encampment on T49.
- War Declaration is still on T50 or on T51 if we want Woden's troops a little further from everywhere else.
- The warrior coming up the east coast remains "on time" for upgrading at Nan Madol on T53 and disembarking SE of the Encampment on Turn 58.

[suboptimal]

Turn 47

First off, thank you (again) to pindicator for stepping in. I don’t know how this will affect turn timing – based on the PBEM 5 tech thread he’s two hours behind me. Our windows do overlap but if he hits the latter half of his window it might be a good 20 hours before I play a turn…I don’t like playing morning turns that are more than “move here, mine this” type of turns because I’m not awake, have been error-prone on my morning turns in past games and have a limited time window before I go to work.

In looking around at the scores to familiarize myself it looks like Woden has gained a few empire points and finished a tech. He’s got a governor up in Methone (probably Magnus) and his warrior has moved to then center of Alexandria, which is now population 3. He’s also now got an envoy in Carthage, I assume from a quest. More importantly his milpower remains at 75 (we’re at 183). Alhazard has made a huge jump in score, settling a third city from the looks of the empire score (+8) and Archduke is the first to 7 techs and is back to being the science leader.

Back home the settler at Punky’s is out. I check the population to make sure they’re working where I want and start putting into the Holy Site. The settler embarks and goes up the coast – that’ll be a little quicker than walking there. Sound’s Holy Site will finish next turn and then it will start on a settler. The builder moves to dumb cows and will be at the iron to mine it on Turn 49. I’ll put one more turn in Iron Working and see how close I am to being able to finish it with the mine eureka next turn.

Over on the island I fortify the warrior to heal another turn – that should be sufficient to wipe out the barbarian camp. It’s worth 3 era points and while I’d like those for later I’ll need the gold shortly. The galley moving along the southern coast finds another barbarian camp, this one is occupied by a warrior. That’s good news as it means it’s not a naval camp, so no quads will be spawning from it.

Up at Carthage I start advancing warriors. The builder put down a plantation on the dyes, giving me an amenities boost as suzerain. That explains all my yields going up despite losing a population.

Over in Macedonia I’ve already mentioned the garrisoned warrior and the governor. Methone is not garrisoned yet and I’m assuming that a Magnus chop is coming for the Encampment. I disembark one warrior 2SE of the sheep hills and see that the tile E of the Encampment is empty grassland. Next turn I’ll disembark the second warrior and move into the grassland in preparation to strike, or at least attract attention, in this direction. At Alexandria I move up on the desert hill NW of the city and reveal more of Macedonia:




The Encampment belongs to Pella, which is located NE of the pastured sheep. It’s also dropped his gold income down to 4 (mine will be going down, need to keep an eye on that). We’ve also located the rest of Woden’s army, as it were. Given the promotions around he must have had quite a bit of barbarian trouble early. That Encampment was also finished just last turn as he has not accumulated any GG points yet. The good news is that if my warrior gets in trouble I can embark to the lake and take refuge until reinforcements arrive as there are no ranged units up here. I’ll move to the plains hill next turn and get eyes on the city center.

The wide view of Macedonia:




Cornflakes, I think based upon the district being complete and the presence of the various resources (23 sheep, improved iron and improved mercury) Pella needs to fall before Methone. The warriors down there can deal with the Encampment (it’d fall in three attacks if ungarrisoned) and sit tight while reinforcements arrive. However, if we can only take one of the two cities after Alexandria the capital needs to be the one that we take first. I think we can also reach that one faster with the swords than Methone.

[suboptimal]

Note to future selves - we should find a good spot for Jebel Barkal and build it. +4 to each city within 6 tiles.

[suboptimal]

Turn 48

Open the save to the notification that an unmet city-state has been defeated. Looks like Archduke is gettin’ busy over there. I also get the notification that State Workforce is boosted - the Holy Site at Sound is complete. That increases my culture rate by 2, bringing it up to 11.9 per turn. I start a settler and change civics to State Workforce. Both it and Military Tradition have 1 turn remaining, so I’ll get those done and then do Political Philosophy, which will take 8 turns at the current culture rate. Builder moves to the iron and activity around the capital is done. I do notice that Iron Working will complete with the iron mine so I switch to Pottery.

Out west the galley rounds the bend of the island and begins heading up the coast towards Stockholm. At the barbarian camp the warrior is not quite healed to one shot the spearman yet. However, I attack now because a 2-turn attack will guarantee a promotion and the warrior won’t die. The spearman is under 10 and I get the promotion. I’ll kill the camp next turn and then heal up.

The settler by Punky’s moves up next to the dyes and will disembark next turn and found the city the turn after that. The galley moving up the coast finds a fork in the coast tiles – left towards theoretically open water or right to continue along the coast. I go right, revealing whales. Fog gazing suggests that going left might also get to the whales but right now I’m sticking with coast that I know.

In the southeast the warrior moves to his embarkation point and will do so next turn. At Carthage the builder has graciously gotten out of the way and moved to the stone, so I cross the river to the plantation. It looks like Carthage will quarry the stone next turn and the builder will be exhausted, so that’s one less obstacle. However, Carthage has built a warrior so that could get in the way. The southern warrior enters the jungle between the mountain ranges on its way to Methone.

Up at Alexandria the warrior remains within the city. Woden has brought the second warrior down to the iron. I head onto the plains hill adjacent to the Encampment. Behold Pella:




I think the best bet here is going to be to draw one or both warriors northeast, perhaps by pillaging the mercury, attacking the Encampment once or twice to get a promotion while it's safe and then heading to the E/NE (and hopefully some coast). Strategic view shows no hammer indicating construction so the city is building a unit. At Methone the promoted slinger has shown up at the Encampment and the city’s defense rating has increased to 15. I disembark the second warrior and move up to flank (not that I get the bonuses or anything). Moving up reveals a peninsula to the SE of Methone with some dyes and good chopping:




If Woden completes the Encampment next turn via chop I’ll be declaring war. I think even if he doesn’t complete the Encampment it might be good to kick things off, if only to kill the slinger and do a little marauding. I’d kill the slinger with nary a scratch to either warrior (well, OK, 17 damage to the first one and about 15 to the second).

With the completion of State Workforce next turn I’ll kill off the barbarian and then switch out of Discipline and put in Conscription for a little while. I’ve currently got 2 in unit maintenance but that number will be going up once the warriors start upgrading in a few turns and any extra gold helps right now.

Internationally, Alhazard now has a Campus down. Interestingly Woden is in 2nd place in the cultural rankings at 6. culture and 3 civics. Archduke is fourth on that list.

Cornflakes, some thoughts about the present situation:

- I could declare war next turn and take out that slinger now. That might get his troops moving to the southeast. Likewise I could pillage that mercury before he could respond militarily.
- Next turn I’ll have Conscription slotted, Iron Working completed and enough gold when the barbarian camp dies to upgrade the two warriors at Carthage now. Any reason not to? I could advance the southern one onto the farm and upgrade or go up to the stone and upgrade there on Turn 50. It doesn’t change the attack plans or timeline any at Alexandria. The one thing it does do would permit a solo sword attack on the city as early as Turn 52 if he were to chase my warrior with both of his.
- I’m thinking that any I get from pillaging is going into Celestial Navigation.

[Cornflakes]

-If the slinger remains in range, kill it next turn. If slinger runs then I think declare war anyway (before moving any units up there). Then southern warriors probably advance to the sheep hill, and either occupy the encampment (if can only be hit by 1 Macedonian unit on that flatland tile) or remain outside of the borders adjacent to the other warrior. Northern warrior targets Mercury for pillage first. I would not waste HP attacking the encampment. Rather save the HP for use against Macedonian military and/or Alexandria. I really want that warrior to be healthy to participate in Alexandria siege.
-Mercury pillage science can go into the current tech or the next tech in queue if it will not be wasted, otherwise Celestial Navigation makes sense.
-thumbs up to Conscription
-thumbs up to upgrading the swords early and speeding up the timeline of the first sword attack.
-my fog gazing on your screenshots doesn’t detect coastline at Pella. In fact Pella looks like a tough but to crack. Seeing the narrow approaches and mountains and lake it will be very difficult to put Pella under siege or even get many attackers adjacent. I’d definitely consider leaving Pella for last and Target Methone after Alexandria seeming that terrain.

[suboptimal]

Time for some violence. I'll move the Carthaginian warrior up to the stone this turn if it's unoccupied. I'll upgrade the Indonesian warrior this turn (it'll be fully healed) and follow with the Carthaginian next turn.

Hopefully pillaging the mercury will draw both warriors NE. If it does I don't know that I can get that warrior back south for Alexandria. However, if Woden does that and shifts the promoted warrior by Methone towards that city (particularly if we take out the slinger) we won't need it to attack Alexandria - one or both swords would be enough to take down the city (3-44 turns with one sword depending on defense value, 2 turns with both regardless of defense value). It just needs to be a nuisance, play keep away and defog the area.

In thinking about it more Methone also makes the better first conquest as it has forests that can be Magnus-chopped out for a battering ram, as we might need it by then. Pella has 12 per turn with 3 citizens and could build walls in 7 turns if Woden has Masonry completed. He's got no cash and little income so unit upgrades are quite a ways off.

With the techs Pottery completes EoT 49 and Writing will complete EoT 51 with about 8 overflow. The overflow + pillage would take two turns off Masonry (3-4 turns instead of 5-6 turns).

[suboptimal]

Turn 49

Open the save to State Workforce completing. That gives me a policy change, a governor promotion and gets me closer to my first government. First, though, I need to check some of the player stats for later. Specifically, Woden’s milpower. It’s now 100, which means he’s completed...probably an archer. It’s also not at Pella or Alexandria unless he’s moved them out. That would explain the 15 garrison strength at Methone, though. I do seem to remember something about the milpower values being somewhat delayed. That does mean that the slinger needs to die since that’s an archer in waiting, though he doesn’t have the gold.

OK, on to domestic matters. First off, mine the iron and complete Iron Working. Doesn’t complete the tech because...why? Last turn it showed that the eureka would complete it...oh wait, maybe the GUI doesn’t properly account for the extra costs or discounts related to the age we’re in. . No matter. I’ll upgrade things at Carthage next turn.

Over on the island the warrior attacks the barbarian camp, killing the spearman, clearing the camp, netting me 3 era points I don’t need and 50 that I do need. Treasury is up to 204. In the southwestern corner of the island the barbarian camp’s spearman has returned...with less than 40hp left. I guess Stockholm has been a bit busy. Galley moves up the coast, finds some marshy rice in Stockholm’s second ring and runs out of movement. Given the layout I should be able to get past the city to complete exploring the west coast.

Rotating north, the settler disembarks at the dyes. Next turn we’ll found that city and get moving. The galley continues up the coast and finds some horses and cattle to go with the stone:




The settler lens doesn’t show anything interesting, other than the fact that the horses are just outside the loyalty influence of Pella.

Returning to my civics and policies, I appoint Magnus and place him in Sound for the time being. I’m going to move him to the new city next turn. He’ll activate on Turn 55 and the builder will chop out the forest for a quadrireme and the start of a Campus. That reminds me….I’ll need to hold off on Military Training in order to do a quick policy switch to Maritime Industries for that chop. I’ll slot Conscription now and start Political Philosophy, then switch to Military Tradition on Turn 55 for a policy change and then again on Turn 57 when I get my government. Gonna have to do without those flanking bonuses for a while longer.

In the southeast the warrior embarks. At Carthage my warrior is fully healed and fortifies on alert status for the time being. The builder...did nothing. I move the warrior to the farm and hang tight. If the builder disappears I’ll move to the stone and upgrade (I’ll have the gold to perform both upgrades next turn). The timing here is such that if I can move to the stone and upgrade next turn then I can move on Alexandria and attack with one sword on Turn 54. If the builder doesn’t move that’s a 2-turn delay. However, we’d have Oligarchy on the second turn of attacks and kill the city on Turn 57. Sooner is always better, though.

Now for Macedonia….




He’s moved the slinger west, into the forest. Interesting. I think this confirms the presence of the archer in the city. I can’t attack the slinger this turn. What I can do is take the grassland warrior, move it onto the Encampment to see what’s in the city, then move back to safety outside Woden’s territory. Actually, instead of that I’ll move to the sheep hill to get eyes on the city center and move the southern warrior up to the grassland. If he declares war I’ll take some hits but be able to pull back and heal.




Oh yeah, he’s chopping out the Encampment next turn and there’s an archer about. Shoulda gone with my original movement plan to be able to attack the Encampment from outside his borders and out of range of the archer (at least for a turn). He’ll most likely chop it out next turn then garrison with the warrior. My presence has, however, pulled his troops east. Up at Pella I proceed onto the mercury to defog further and find a pastured horse E-NE of Pella. I move up next to the city center to defog further:




Not a coastal city but wow, what a location! I see why he took God of the Open Sky. He seems to be leaving a warrior in Alexandria for the time being, so I’ll need to set up the attack there with both swordsmen. In looking around I spot cliffs to the E of the horses and coast on the edge of the forest to the NE, so I have an escape route if I need it.

Cornflakes, I was thinking on keeping the warrior NE/E of Pella to keep the second warrior up there, but that puts the warrior “out of play”. I’m going to move it back around the Encampment through the jungle to get more land defogged. At Methone I’m going to rotate back to the S/SE. Pillaging the Encampment at Methone is out for the time being. We’d lose one or most likely both warriors if we tried that, at the exchange of possibly killing one unit and pillaging the district. However, we’ve succeeded in getting his units away from Alexandria. Hopefully there’s not an Agoge chop coming at Methone. Any suggestions for how to move the warriors when we declare war? I’m thinking the forest and jungle where I initially disembarked. That’ll let me try to hold the coastal locations for disembarking the sword when it arrives.

The war declaration needs to wait until we attack Alexandria. I think that gives the warriors the best chance at remaining intact at Methone.

[Cornflakes]

Pella is a really strong capital location! If not for our natural wonder I would be very jealous! Compare to the terrain around the tile we started on

I think you are right about needing to hold off on the declaration of war until the attack on Alexandria. The Archer will quickly whittle away at the warriors. If Woden declares earlier then you have successfully “drawn the foul” and earned the Defensive Tactics inspiration. In the mean time just keep shuffling the warriors around the city counter-clockwise.

I keep wondering if it would be better to preserve the 240 upgrade gold for the future and just keep choking with the warriors only. With 2 more Macedonian chops incoming next turn that could be 2 more Archers. 3 Archers (4 with the slinger upgrade) plus the warriors should be able to ward off your 3 swords + 3 warriors from Methone. If Methone gets walls then the attack is just straight up done.

If you do press the attack, then given the delays consider targeting Methone first even with their military presence. Your Carthage sword will now be arriving about the same timeline as your Nan Madol sword. The advantage of speeding up Methone is less time for it to build walls. Alexandria is an insignificant city and worst case if your attack fails spectacularly at Methone you wouldn’t have really gained much more from razing Alexandria. Something to think about anyway over the next turn or two.

The horse pasture would be a valuable pillage target for the 50 (repaying almost half the levy cost for the Nan Madol units)

If the Macedonian chops do result in Archers then Tortois is probably the promotion to take in the north when you start earning them.