Mikehendi Pitboss 16 Thread

[mackoti]

Pacifism is actually antisynergistic with PHI.

Dont know about that, is like saying colosus not worth for fin cause gaves just more 33% instead of 50%.With pacifism and philo you get near maximum return from a specealist(you need rep to to get that) so why not, if is not expensive becasue of military.

[Mikehendi]

Well if we had access to Pacifism right now, we would definitely use it! Unfortunately we do not.



Some interesting stuff up here as our scout watches Gavagai prepare for his attack. His dozen horse archers are on the same tile as our scout, and there's a couple of catapults and axes inside Boron. I think the basic idea here is for the workers to road in neutral territory, and then the Gavagai horse archers can race forward and get next to Pasargadae. But I wonder how well Gavagai knows the vision system in Civ4, since it's non-intuitive here. If he moves his units on the white dot, then they will not be seen by Bantams, and he can stay there as long as he wants preparing. However, if he moves his units onto the red dot (south of the crabs), then the horse archers will be seen over the water. I tested this in Worldbuilder because I was curious, that's how it appears to work.

I'm very interested to see how this all plays out here. Whether Gavagai stages his units in view of Bantams or not could be hugely important. A couple of spears in 40% cultural defense Pasargadae will massacre those horse archers, if Bantams is smart enough to whip out units (and he's got plenty of pop to whip away). I also wonder whether Gavagai is going to wait for those catapults, or try to charge in with the horse archers alone. Delay matters a lot, since that peace treaty with Noble is ticking away each turn. We'll sit on the sidelines for now, get some horse archers ready, and prepare to strike if we see an opening.



This was... unexpected? Sevenspirits declared war against our team, I guess to scout with his work boat. The main effect is to destroy the value of shared trade routes, they won't be worth much of anything for the next 50 turns even after peace is signed. I have to say, it feels a bit petulant on their part, a little bit like throwing a tantrum when their team didn't get their way. Oh well, probably not a big deal. I'm not trying to irritate Seven, but I'm not giving our biggest competition free reign to scout us out either.

What would be truly funny would be if they sent their work boat south through our territory. We just finished a galley with the idea of ferrying a chariot over to Goreripper's continent to do some scouting. So if that work boat tries to head south, it will move right next to the galley and die immediately, which would be hilarious from our perspective. I'm waiting to see which way that work boat goes next turn, if it heads off north then we'll offer a straight peace treaty. Hoping it heads south though!



This is poor Carcasonne, getting abused for another Great Scientist. It's a good choice to take a beating since it has the least to lose - there's little infrastructure here and few developed cottages. It's taking one for the team.

[Lewwyn]

I have to say, it feels a bit petulant on their part, a little bit like throwing a tantrum when their team didn't get their way. Oh well, probably not a big deal. I'm not trying to irritate Seven, but I'm not giving our biggest competition free reign to scout us out either.

How is them wanting to scout you being petulant? You're coming off pretty ignorant and arrogant here.

[Hesmyrr]

I have to say, it feels a bit petulant on their part, a little bit like throwing a tantrum when their team didn't get their way. Oh well, probably not a big deal. I'm not trying to irritate Seven, but I'm not giving our biggest competition free reign to scout us out either.

How is them wanting to scout you being petulant? You're coming off pretty ignorant and arrogant here.

Meh, bit of a smack talk is par around some of the threads anyway. Might as well not bother with each comment until end of the game - though on retrospect it's better to show discomfort toward particular writing style early instead of letting it quell on lurker thread, have seen you post often here.

[novice]

Pacifism is actually antisynergistic with PHI.

Dont know about that, is like saying colosus not worth for fin cause gaves just more 33% instead of 50%.With pacifism and philo you get near maximum return from a specealist(you need rep to to get that) so why not, if is not expensive becasue of military.

Disagree on the Colossus comparison, GPP and commerce are two different concepts. One GPP is worth progressively less the more GPPs you've already produced. In reality you only need so much GPP, enough to produce great people from the cities that are able to do so, during a golden age. Shaving 5 turns down to 4 turns is not essential. PHI is good because it lets you ignore Philosophy.

[WilliamLP]

Disagree on the Colossus comparison, GPP and commerce are two different concepts. One GPP is worth progressively less the more GPPs you've already produced. In reality you only need so much GPP, enough to produce great people from the cities that are able to do so, during a golden age. Shaving 5 turns down to 4 turns is not essential. PHI is good because it lets you ignore Philosophy.

Can't having both increase the number of cities that are able to produce a GP, during a golden age? Also, doesn't having both change the equation a little bit for when it's correct to stop going for GP? Maybe you'd stop when the counter was 1400 instead of 1200 or something? (These aren't rhetorical questions; most people in this thread are better at micro than me.)

I don't think Mike's writing style came across as arrogant at all. I like seeing reporting without the deference to the elders.

But I wonder how well Gavagai knows the vision system in Civ4, since it's non-intuitive here.

Yeah, the vision system can range from non-intuitive (a peak can see over a forest, and over a hill, but not over a forested hill?) to downright arcane (have you ever tried to puzzle out exactly how sight range works for a sentry unit?)

[suttree]

Pacifism is actually antisynergistic with PHI.

Dont know about that, is like saying colosus not worth for fin cause gaves just more 33% instead of 50%.With pacifism and philo you get near maximum return from a specealist(you need rep to to get that) so why not, if is not expensive becasue of military.

Disagree on the Colossus comparison, GPP and commerce are two different concepts. One GPP is worth progressively less the more GPPs you've already produced. In reality you only need so much GPP, enough to produce great people from the cities that are able to do so, during a golden age. Shaving 5 turns down to 4 turns is not essential. PHI is good because it lets you ignore Philosophy.

There are at least two scenarios here: either PHI + pacifism (as compared to PHI/pacifism alone) gives you incentive to generate an additional GP during the golden age or it doesn't.

If it doesn't, then Novice is right: Pacifism is anti-synergistic with PHI. The return on Pacifism (IE the food saved by increasing the GPP output of specialists) is lower with PHI then it would be without PHI.

On the other hand, if Pacifism gives a PHI player incentive to generate an additional GP during the golden age, then the return on Pacifism is likely to be greater with PHI then it would be without PHI: you net the food savings on that GP (which you would otherwise generate outside of pacifism later in the game) plus the interest you earn from getting that GP sooner rather than later. So it is possible for PHI to be synergistic with Pacifism.

All of this is moot, however, if you're making a liberalism run. You need Philosophy as a prerequisite. So long as Pacifism saves you more food during the golden age than another available religious civic (which it probably will if you have few units and are generating several GP's) you probably want to get Philosophy earlier rather than later - if only to earn some return rather than no return on the tech. So it is possible for the priority of Pacifism to be independent of PHI.

It's seems important to note that Pacifism might have an added cost if you're forced to delay a revolt to Bureaucracy or delay the ETA on Oxford. On the other hand, Pacifism might have an added return if you can achieve your GP goals with smaller cities and so trigger the GA earlier.

[Catwalk]

I think they're synergistic, but that the synergy is much smaller than Colossus + FIN. You get a bonus for something that you already want to specialize in, that's a good thing. Diminishing returns then reduces your bonus, which is a bad thing. I think you come out ahead. Same for ORG + Sumeria. You get a bonus for something that's already good and that you're going to build. That means your bonus will come into play. The bonus is reduced by ziggurats already being cheap, but it'll still be there. It lets you focus resources on something you do well. ORG ziggurats are cheap enough that you can base a strategy around them.

[Bobchillingworth]

Just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying your reports- lots of screencaps + text in reasonably-sized paragraph form makes for fine reading

[suttree]

ORG + Sumeria. You get a bonus for something that's already good and that you're going to build. That means your bonus will come into play. The bonus is reduced by ziggurats already being cheap, but it'll still be there. It lets you focus resources on something you do well. ORG ziggurats are cheap enough that you can base a strategy around them.

That's a good analogy Catwalk. Like PHI + Pacifism, the circumstances of a particular game determine if ORG + Sumeria will be synergistic or not. If circumstances are such that you will build ziggurats earlier with ORG than without, and this effect is sufficiently large, then ORG + Sumeria can be synergistic. If circumstances are such that a PHI player will generate great people earlier with Pacifism than without, and this effect is sufficiently large, then PHI + Pacifism can be synergistic.

And for both PHI + Pacifism / ORG + Sumeria, the "moot" case remains. If your strategy is such that the return on a given pairing is better than the alternatives, then synergy is irrelevant. ORG + Sumeria/ PHI + Pacifism can be anti-synergistic but still provide the best return in a given scenario.