[SPOILERS] Will the Sun(rise) Ever Set on Washington, Mongolia?

[Whosit]

New Sandbox play with corrections. Note that 3rd City Settled on T49, it's granary isn't finished by T60. Doesn't have access to improved Food for some time, and I don't think I get any chops in it early because Workers are busy elsewhere. I'm not UNhappy with this, but I think it's all very slow for expansion.

T33: Stanford Worker chops.
T34: Corn Farm Finishes.
T35: Wendy Worker moves 1SE (forest); Stanford (Warrior > Worker); chop finishes to Stanford.
T36: Stanford Worker moves 1E, 1NE (forest); Wendy Worker chops.
T37: Stanford (Worker > Warrior); Stanford Worker chops; new Stanford Worker moves 1SW (forest).
T38: Pottery > AH; Wendy Chop finishes (city swap to Granary).
T39: Wendy Worker moves 1S Cottage.
T40: Stanford Worker moves 1N Cottage; Stanford Chop finishes; Wendy works grass mine; Stanford works grass forest.
T41: Stanford Worker moves 1E (forest).
T42: Stanford (Granary > Warrior); Worker chops. *Stanford grows in 2 turns, Warrior finishes in 2, so granary gets use before city is whipped for Settler
T43: 2 Cottages finish. Micro Stanford to work cottage. (Warrior will finish with 0 overflow.)
T44: Stanford (Warrior > Settler); Whip Wendy Granary; Stanford Chop finishes; Stanford Worker moves 1S Road; Wendy Worker moves 1NE Cottage.
T45: 2nd Stanford Worker 1T Cottage.
T46: AH > Archery; Wendy (Warrior > Warrior); Stanford Worker 1N Road; 2nd Stanford Worker 1S Camp.
T47: Cottage Finishes, Wendy Works Cottage; Whip Stanford Settler.
T48: Stanford (Settler > Worker); Settler moves to 1W Copper; Worker moves to 1W Copper; Wendy Worker moves to 1SW Copper. (This variant I opted to go for a Worker in capital instead of two 1-turn Warriors.)
T49: Settle City (Soos: Granary); 2 Workers move to Copper Hill; Stanford swaps from cottage to ivory camp (Worker finishes 1 turn instead of 2); Soos works cottage.
T50: Archery > Mysticism; Stanford (Worker > Archer); 2 Workers mine Copper; Ivory Worker moves 1NW (Hill); New Worker moves to Sheep.
T51: Wendy (Warrior > Worker); Worker pastures Sheep; Stanford Worker Mines; Copper finished; Stanford works north cottage.
T52: 2 Soos Workers move 1S Farm.
T53: 1-pop Whip Wendy Worker.
T54: Mysticism > Fishing; Stanford (Archer > Settler); Wendy (Worker > Monument); Wendy worker moves 1SW (forest); Stanford mine finishes (work it).
T55: Wendy Worker chops; Stanford Worker moves to plains forest hill; Sheep worker moves 1NE; FP Worker moves 1NW.
T56: Stanford Worker chops; Soos Worker Chops; other FP Worker moves 1NW; Soos Worker moves 1NE Road.
T57: Fishing > Writing; Soos Worker Chop (finishes chop).
T58: Wendy (Monument > Worker); Wendy Worker moves 1NE; Stanford Chop finishes; 2 Soos Workers Road (1S of city); Soos Worker 1N Road.
T59: Stanford (Settler > Axe); Stanford Worker moves 1S 1T cottage; Wendy Worker 1E Cottage; Worker pair moves to wilderness to road.
Turn 60 Assessment:
Units: 1 Settler, 5 Workers, 1 Archer, 8 Warriors.
Improvements of Note: copper Mine, Ivory Camp, 3 Hamlets.
Est. Demos: GNP 36, Prod 16, Food 41.
3 Cities, 12 Pop points.
4th City settled on T63 (sheep/pig north spot).

[Whosit]

I'm not quite sure how, but next chance I get to play in the sandbox, I think I'm going to want to find a new plan that gives us a lot fewer warriors. I imagine we'd rather have more workers. Also turn pictures coming.

[Whosit]

No hostilities were taken against the scout. I saw one worker had moved to the cows, the other 1NE of the wheat, but y'know, what am I going to tell from all that? Scout backtracking a bit to try and avoid that lion.




Found the Roman scout. Injured. Will probably have moved by next turn. I am honestly kind of tempted to try and kill the scout, but without knowing how far the Romans are or really anything, I think it would just create bad blood without providing me any actual advantage. It's just tempting to be a troll.




Our fine cities.







I think I am going to have to definitely make major revisions to the game plan I've developed. I think 4th city on turn 63 is just abysmal. 5th city might be acceptable. Part of the problem is that I'm just not sure where to settle. I think that cities 4 and 5 need to be fast starters: At least one food resource in 1st ring, and preferable a forest or two to get chopped. Need to look at the map for likelier spots. North could be easier to settle if I could find a way to get Soos's borders popped earlier. I would actually prefer to build a Barracks there instead of a Monument. Even though it would take longer, Soos is going to just pump out units, so why not the barracks?

South spots... could be a coastal city to grab the crabs, but then what? It's so hilly, I either build cottages and ignore the hills, or build several farms to supplement the city's food. The turn only just rolled, so I have time to figure out what to do. Gonna sit on this until later tonight.

[Whosit]

Turns 34 & 35

Scout was injured because I was a doofus and apparently thought that the lake was blocking the lion. I was originally planning to spend 2 turns healing, but then decided to just keep moving and trust in luck/fate.




More scouting over here. Could be a really strong location for a city, though not sure if it's within our reach or not.




I still think this looks neat.




They get silver, too. I think our 3rd luxury resource is an incense. Bleh. If they didn't also have gold close by, I'd have considered trying to trade away our gold for their furs. Not sure if they would have accepted, but furs would be slightly more valuable to us because of cheap Markets.




Cities.




Demos.

[Whosit]

I made another quick attempt at the sandbox, here's what I did different and the results:

Alternate
T44: Wendy Worker start moving to Forest.
T46: Wendy (Warrior > Worker); Wendy Worker chop.
T48: Wendy chop finishes.
T49: Wendy (Worker > Worker); Wendy worker moves to City; New Wendy Worker moves towards soos.
T50: Wendy Worker puts 1 chop into forest (S of sheep); Wendy Worker moves 2E Cottage.
T51: 2 workers start on sheep; hill worker moves 1NW cottage; Whip Wendy! (Keep Soos working cottage instead of FP?)
T52: Wendy (Worker > Archer); Capital works cottage; Soos works Sheep!; Cottage worker moves 1NE1N (forest); new wendy worker moves to hill 1SW cap.
T53: Stanford forest chops; Sheep workers split to different soos forests; hill worker mines; Cottage worker 1W cottage.
T54: Soos forests get chopped; Archer heads north; Copper Worker heads N to road.
T55: Mystic > Writing; Chopped worker moves 1S of soos?
T56: Soos chops both finish; free worker moves to FP to farm.
T57: Road work around Soos; Stanford worker moves to plains forest hill; Wendy Worker moves to Soos forest 2S.
T58: Soos (Granary > Barracks); 2 Workers move out to road to city spot.
T59: Lone road worker returns to FP.
T60: Stanford (Settler > Settler);

Turn 60 Assessment;
Units: 1 Settler, 6 Workers, 1 Archer, 7 Warriors
Improvesments of Note: Copper Mine, Ivory Camp, 2 Hamlets
Est Demos: GNP 40, Prod 22, Food 37
3 Cities, 12 pop points.
4th City on T63 (sheep/pig north spot)

So it's very similar to the last try, except I traded a Warrior for a Worker and my cottages aren't as developed. Prod/Food is really about the same. The FP farm at Soos might be a turn late, but the Barracks was going to finish EoT62, I think (working Copper mine instead of FP to finish it faster). So Soos was actually much more developed than in the previous go. This miiiiight be slightly superior, as the 3rd cottage was maybe 3-4 turns from advancing.

Our 4th city will still be damn late, but we'll have the worker force to improve it quickly, and the 5th city would probably be coming down.... ~T68? It's also around now that Wendy is finally large enough that I can whip it more aggressively, I think. I was thinking I could whip workers and pass off whip anger on Settlers, and probably grow it on whatever infra or units are needed (needs a monument, anyway).

I mean, I still don't think this is great. Very late 4th city and the forests in the core are completely exhausted now. We also don't have much of an army, but Stanford and Wendy are both large enough that they could whip an Axe or Spear with a turn's warning. I know Civ IV is a snowball game, but I guess I'm hoping that even with the late 4th city, if I push out 2-3 more Settlers quickly I can catch up. I am still not really certain where I should settle new cities... I think in the actual game, I should send Wendy's garrison unit out to the north, north-west of the city to scout what's there. I also want to establish cities to the south, but the food and terrain just looks so much weaker in that direction.

[Gavagai]

Hey, Whosit, sorry for disappearing. RL has been shit and PB22 sucked up all my energy reserved for civ. I logged into the game and put several signs suggesting cities, hope, that it will be useful.

Also, can you send me your latest sandbox? It looks like I'm relatively free this weekend and I see that you aren't pleased with your results. May be I will be able to help.

[Whosit]

Oh, hey Gav! No sweat, I figured you were busy or something. I just got a little frustrated because it seems my own Civ planning is inadequate. I'll shoot you over the latest sandbox soon (I think I need to update it a turn or two), and I also need to post images from the last few turns. Well, I guess I don't have to, but I might as well.

We've met 3 civs (none of whom have met each other yet). Our Scout is still alive, and we have a Warrior out scouting as well, so I feel our map knowledge is probably pretty good comparatively. However, knowledge of what's to our west is still pretty bad. So far, the best clumpings of food resources have been to our north, and there's a spot I want to race Korea to, but once I log into the game I'll take a look at your suggested spots.

[Whosit]

Photo dump!!





































Of note: It appears that the Imperialistic Holy Romans are going to settled their THIRD city next turn! Also, the Zulu have NOT met the HRE yet. I bet they will soon. HRE has contact with Rome, though. Considering that HRE's expansion is defended by a wounded scout, I'm going to guess that they were playing greedy. Man, too bad it wasn't our scouting WARRIOR that stumbled upon their new city location. I'd burn that down in a heartbeat.

That clam/fish location west of the Koreans would be wonderful to have. Settle on a hill, lock down the land passage but we'd have to make sure to have naval dominance. Not really sure we can beat them there unless you can help me figure out how to get more settlers, Gav. I wonder if the other teams just slow-built things at lower population levels. Anyway, that spot is so close to Korea, probably no way we get it, but if we could somehow station an Axe/Spear pair there to ward off settlers.... that's still unlikely.

Took a look at your city recommendations. I agree, though the southern sites still look so weak and unappealing. Basically filler cities. I'd still want to settle the north pig/sheep city before the gold city so that the pigs are in culture and can be shared. Otherwise, we'd have to get a monument built and then wait 10 long turns for the border pop. I guess I'll mess around in the sandbox again and see if I can improve anything further (though looking forward to your suggestions).

I didn't end turn. I want to let the time run a little longer to give us more time to think.

[Whosit]

Gavagai:

I just did this:

T39: Withdraw southern sentry; Swap Stanford to Settler.
T40: North Stanford Worker Road.
T41: Move South Stanford Worker 1W (forest hill).
T42: S Stanford Worker Chop; N Stanford Worker Move 1N, Road.
T43: ---
T44: Stanford (Settler > Worker); Settler Move to City 3; N Stanford Worker Move to Copper; Wendy Worker Move 1NE, Cottage.
T45: Settle (Soos: Granary); S Stanford Worker Mine (stop) *Road instead?*.
T46: Stanford (Worker > Worker); Soos Worker Mine Copper; New Stanford Worker Move 2W, Cottage (Wendy Works); S Stanford Worker Mine (stop).
T47: AH > Archery; Stanford (Warrior > Settler); Whip Wendy; 2 Workers move towards Soos Forests; Hill Worker moves to Ivory, Camps.
T48: Workers move to 2 forests.
T49: Wendy (Warrior > Axeman); New Warrior Scouts?; 2 Workers chop; Copper mine finishes.
T50: Archery > Mysticism?; Copper Worker Move to Sheep; Ivory finishes.
T51: Stanford (Worker > Settler); Soos Chops finish; Worker Move to Sheep, Pasture; Ivory Worker Move 1NW (hill); New Worker Move to Soos FP.
T52: Soos (Granary > Barracks); S Soos Worker Road; W Soos Worker Move 1SE, Road; Hill Worker Mine; Worker Farm Flood Plain; Whip Wendy.
T53: Wendy (Axeman > Spearman); Soos Workers Move 2N, Road; Mine finish (Swap Wendy/Stanford).
T54: 2 Workers Move 1N, Road; Hill Worker Move 2NE (forest plains hill); Pasture finish.
T55: Mysticism > Fishing?; 2 Workers Move 1N, Road; Sheep Worker Move 2E; Hill Worker Chop.
T56: 2 Workers Move 1NW; Worker Move to FP, Farm.
T57: Stanford (Settler > Granary); 2 Workers Road; FP Worker Move 2W.
T58: Fishing > Writing**; 2 Workers Move 1NW, Road (2 Turns Early, adjust); 2 Workers Cottage; Whip Wendy; FP Worker.... to Cottagers.
T59: Wendy (Spear > Worker); 2 Workers lost turn (BAD); 1 Worker Move to 1E of Wendy; Whip Stanford.
T60: Stanford (Granary > Archer); Settle (Dipper Pines: Granary); Workers Pasture; Wendy Worker Cottage;

ADJUSTMENTS: Get a chop into Soos's Barracks earlier. Workers who Road need to spend an extra turn doing something around Soos. Get an extra Cottage by Wendy much earlier.

**Should probably just tech Writing instead of Myst/Fishing

Turn 60 Assessment;
Units: 5 Workers; 7 Warriors; 1 Axeman; 1 Spearman
Improvements of Note: Copper Mine, Ivory Camp, 2 Hamlets.
Est Demos: GNP 29 (breakeven); Prod 21; Food 43
4 Cities; 12 pop points.

When I log in, I am probably going to start this plan unless I hear you say something very soon (turn flips in just under 4 hours). I don't like that we have fewer Workers, but I think with a few adjustments, it might be better overall. I think I'd rather have that city down earlier. Pluses: Soos settled like 4 turns earlier than in other plan, and 4th city settled 3 turns earlier. Soos gets Granary WAY earlier, and can probably get Barracks done, or closer to done, with some adjustments. We also have Copper units on the field (spearman could be replaced with a 2nd Axeman, of course, and probably should do that). Main downside is that the capital is much smaller because I didn't get the granary and didn't grow it, but since it wasn't really gonna get grown anyway, figured delaying the Granary would be acceptable. It should grow to a nice size in a few turns after T60 (size 4 T61, Size 5 T64).

[Whosit]

Apparently I screwed something up in my write-up because Stanford Pines is apparently doing 2 things at once on Turn 47. So my attempt to refine went awry, but I might have still got something slightly better:

T39: Withdraw southern sentry; Warrior N of Wendy Move to East; Swap Stanford to Settler.
T40: North Stanford Worker Road; Swap Stanford to Ivory*, Wendy to Mine*.
T41: Move South Stanford Worker 1W (forest hill).
T42: S Stanford Worker Chop; N Stanford Worker Move 1N, Road.
T43: Warriors Screen City 3 site.
T44: Stanford (Settler > Worker); Settler Move to City 3; N Stanford Worker Move to Copper; Wendy Worker Move 1NE, Cottage; Whip Wendy.
T45: Settle (Soos: Granary); Wendy (Wendy > Warrior); S Stanford Worker Mine (stop).
T46: Stanford (Worker > Warrior); Wendy (Warrior > Warrior); Warrior Scouts?; Soos Worker Mine Copper; New Stanford Worker Move 2W, Cottage (Wendy Works, Stanford takes Mine back); S Stanford Worker Mine (stop).
T47: AH > Archery; Whip Wendy; 2 Workers Road; Hill Worker moves to Ivory, Camps.
T48: Stanford (Warrior > Settler); Workers move to 2 forests.
T49: 2 Workers chop; Copper mine finishes.
T50: Archery > Writing; Copper Worker Move to Sheep; Ivory finishes.
T51: Soos Chops finish; Worker Move to Sheep, Pasture; Ivory Worker Move 1NW (hill); Whip Wendy.
T52: Wendy (Spearman > Axeman); Soos (Granary > Barracks); S Soos Worker Road; SS Soos Worker Move 1N, Road; Hill Worker Mine.
T53: Soos Workers Move 2N, Road; Mine finish (swap with Wendy); Whip Wendy.
T54: Wendy (Axeman > Worker); 2 Workers Move 1N, Road; Hill Worker Move to FP; Pasture finish.
T55: Stanford (Settler > Worker); 2 Workers Move 1N, Road; Sheep Worker Move 2E; Soos Worker Farm FP.
T56: 2 Workers Move 1NW; Worker Move to FP, Farm.
T57: 2 Workers Road; Settler moves to City 4 Site.
T58: Writing > Maths?; Stanford (Worker > Worker); 2 Workers Move 1NW, Road; Settle (Dipper Pines: Granary); New Worker Move N to Soos Forest.
T59: Wendy (Spear > Worker); 2 Dipper Workers pasture; 1 Worker Move Soos Forest; 1 Worker moves 1SW (forest hill); 1 Worker Move 2W.
T60: Wendy (Worker > Axeman); Wendy Worker 1E, Cottage; Soos Worker Chop**; Stanford Worker Chop; Stanford Worker Cottage; pig pasture finishes.

**Too late to assist Barracks, perhaps perform another action on T58?

Turn 60 Assessment;
Units: Workers 6, Warriors 7, Axeman 1, Spearman 1
Improvements of Note: Same as always
Est. Demos: GNP 25 (Breakeven), Prod 23, Food 45
4 Cities with 12 total population points

I failed in 2 of my adjustments (chop into Soos Barracks, and get more cottages earlier). I ended up a Worker short for most of this playthrough because of mistaken notes of what Stanford was doing, and also didn't have the worker turns for more Cottages. It probably doesn't matter, because no city really had the pop to work more cottages. More cottages are only being added here around T60, at the end. However, hopefully that's somewhat made up for with the two very early cottages at Wendy (they mature to Villages in 13 and 16 turns). We somehow ended up with more workers than the previous attempt (and Stanford will finish a 7th on T61), and our 4th city gets settled a 2 turns earlier than last time (also means Workers don't have a wasted turn). We get a spear before the axe, but against barbs that should be ok...? Don't know if we'll see barb axes by T60. BTW, Spear and Axe both have to get sent to city 4 location upon spawning to help protect Workers/Settler.

This play even results in higher demos, well, for Prod and Food, which are probably more important. Not really sure how I got that awfully high GNP from before. Maybe from teching Writing with 2 pre-reqs? Anyway, I think I'm heading in the right direction with this. Gonna continue this play a few more turns to get an idea of when city 5 might be gotten.