[PB25 Spoiler] General Flauros leads the Creole Calabim

[GermanJoey]

[BRickAstley]

I agree that some of the things said in lurker and private threads are of very bad taste.

What I've said is not about having people think better about you in this forum, though. I think we can only really judge our own actions and the things we say ourselves, not those of others. I also think you are a nice guy and that you don't really mean some of the things you say while "raging", but of course, that's just what I think. And, at least for me, sometimes I say things when mad that I regret later (you should see me watching a soccer game from my team, I go totally psycho sometimes) and, in my experience, I don't think I ever was satisfied about offending anyone when I think about it later. So what I've said is more about a personal thing than about doing good forum PR. Again, only my opinion.

And, as always, keep on in the game. A lot of things can happen still.

You can do it GJ!

[Mardoc]

Why in the world would lurkers need to manufacture drama? Has there ever been a shortage of naturally occurring drama?

[wetbandit]

If anyone really deserves the level of vitriol here, it's certainly not OH, and it's probably me. OH was kind enough to cover for me when I suddenly found that I had no time to do the map. I know you've acknowledged this in your thread before, but he was put in a difficult spot.

[GermanJoey]

Well, you had some IRL shit to deal with, right? Can't blame you for that.

T94.

Gavagai landed the HG and shot up like a billion points in score. So, he's doing well again now. Donovan got currency, making him the third, after Commodore and, surprisingly, Elkad. I get it in 2; I mighta been able to squeeze it done within 1 turn, but I didn't count on the extra KTB. Well, its fine, I'll as much extra $$$ from the KTB as I would from the extra routes probably. Elkad also landed the GW... I remember him saying he wanted to do espionage economy in PB24, so that's probably what's going on there. I don't think it'll do him a lot of good, he landed it too late. He finally got a bunch of cities down, so he's up to 8 now. Most teams are pretty much caught up to me in city count by now - Com has 10, Borsche 10, Gav 9, Donovan 9, and retep probably has 10 by now too, I think.

Top MFG is spiking a lot, I think Commodore already has forges on top of everything else. So that's what, 2 extra happy cap? Another 3 from a market, that'd let him grow up to size 16. Christ. My cap is still struggling at size 7. Well, it could be retep too, or even Gav with all his extra pop.

[GermanJoey]

T102.

Ok, here we are. This game is still depressing as hell, and, guess what, I still hate it. But, I will write about it anyways, because my brain is obviously broken and I just can't help but be compelled to write long, wordy posts about the games I play no matter what.

Here's an overview of my core: (I've also got my 2 cities on my island, but they're just size 4 and building libraries, so who cares about them)




Notice how nearly every single one of my cities, except AH, is unhappy. That's because I finally turned growth back on, in preparation for Calendar next turn, so that these new citizens will instantly become productive. I've been dancing around my happiness problem for a long time, and as such, my neighbors have all caught up and then since passed me w.r.t CY and MFG. For awhile, I tried putting food into extra workers, and then even into another settler, (despite not having a spot anywhere, as if I were a BTS AI ), and then finally into as many scientists as I possibly could while turning Avoid Growth on. Ugh, terrible. If this were a big, sparse map, I could have just gone for Monarchy after Writing, instead of Math->Masonry->Calendar, but Com's slingshot shenanigans and this tight map made me feel like I had to keep up in tech above all else.

By the way, here's a breakdown of each players' happy resources, at least as they're currently claimed. Interestingly, only a few of these are in contested positions, such as the spices clustered between the edges of Gavagai and Borsche's borders. I also listed what sort of private ICTR players were given, as some players got their own isolated islands designed for them while others did not.

(unique ancient / calendar / other classical / unique total / total)
Commodore: (5/2/1/8/8) furs, silver, ivory, gold, whales, incense, jungle dyes, jungle sugar; 1 big private island
Elkad: (4/2/1/7/12) ivory, furs, gold, silver, incense, 5 silks, 2 wines; 1 small private island
Donovan: (4/2/0/5/7) 2 gems, ivory, gold, furs, 2 incense, 2 private islands; 1 big private island and one small one
HAK: (4/0/1/5/9) 2 furs, gold, whales, ivory, 4 wines; 1 big private island
Borsche: (3/3/0/6/12) furs, gems, ivory, silks, 5 sugars, 3 spices; 2 small private islands
Gavagai: (3/2/0/5/7) 2 golds, ivory, silver, 2 spices, silks. no private islands.
Grimace: (2/3/0/5/7) gems, ivory, silks, dyes, sugar, 2 jungle sugar; no private islands
Retep: (2/1/1/4/8) ivory, gems, 3 wines, 4 silks; no private islands
Me: (2/1/1/4/7) ivory, silver, 3 dyes, jungle gems, jungle dyes; no private islands

So, anyways, my once dominant CY and MFG numbers now look extremely sad, even though GNP is decent, perhaps second on-average compared to Commodore thanks to the huge amount of scientists specialists I've assigned.










Dat CY drop, ugh, and not even 1st in MFG during a GA. =/ Indeed, land and thus production is my other main problem, but the only way I'm getting that is with warfare, and given the close tech/power development rates of civs worldwide (other than Commodore), I don't think I can make that happen until Knights at the earliest. (although I might build up some Swords and Horchers in case anyone dogpiles on Elkad) Before that, I need to get my happiness situation worked out, and have been thus putting my all my effort towards that.

Here's the plan.

Step 1: Build this big stone piece of shit:







Six math chops and 60 chained overflow (the reason AH is not unhappy is because it was whipped down for this) on the turn stone hooked up sounded like a decent platform to build this thing, but, man alive, it turned out to actually be quite an ordeal. First, I got my stone hooked up super late because I had to deal with HAK, then I ended up accidentally putting 2 worker turns into a quarry instead of a fort, a few turns ago (and yes, I did indeed brutally rage out at myself ) because I was canceling the workers' build orders every turn incase HAK or Borsche pulled some shit. So that delayed me another turn, which was very unfortunate because I was all set to let my overflow out. Next, Elkad popped 3rd ring borders in the Hague (founded CoL) the turn before I was about to pull an Operation Paul Bunyan and bust onto a neutral 3rd-ring forest with 3 workers, 2 axes, and 2 Impis to chop it down. So, that ended up being 3 turns lost; I had planned to have the stupid thing done this turn, T102, the turn I'd throw the GA. Instead, I need to throw the GA now to finish it T104 instead of T105. It's not the end of the world (or at least, any more than the world is already over) if I lose it though, as I'll get enough failgold to blitz through the religous line up to Monarchy before the GA is over.

I estimated that the break-even time, as far as pure-beakers are concerned, of Rep scientists vs 500 failgold, will be something like 21 turns. Once you factor in all the extra cottages I can work though, that number will drop to about 13-14 turns. Not bad. My hope is that between Rep, Calendar, and this GA, I can get to Knights in maybe 20, 25 turns or so? Maybe not a great timing but hopefully fast enough to get a window to jump on a neighbor.

Step 2: get Calendar.

I have only one Calendar resource, three dyes (and another in the jungle), but I hope to get +3 happy from that short term, +6 long term - dyes, a dyes for gold trade from Gavagai, eventually a dyes for silk trade from Elkad, and furthermore eventually a dyes for sugar trade with Borsche. The huge number of workers I've over-built will finally pay off here:




I'll also try building the MoM, although all I expect to get for this effort is some failgold... which is fine as long as its not because Com got it instead, with a GE or something. (he just popped a prophet this turn, so, whew). I didn't build up a full retinue of 60of here, as I had fully expected Com to have built this dumb cypt already, but I can at least pool in 35 hammers this way, plus 4 forests. That completes a little over half of it instantly, and thus would give me an eta of T112 or so. Well, whatever, we'll see, I'll start cranking out 2 more GPs during this GA.




Step 3: ... eventually get other stuff?

My next desired techs are MC (forges. everywhere. +3 happy!) then IW (to unearth my jungled gems, rice, and dyes) and then tech to Knights in some order. I hope not to need to sideline Construction, but it may be unavoidable if HAK starts being aggressive again. As for the order towards Guilds, it doesn't matter much unless I fail the Mids, but in that case I'll beeline Monarchy first.

I'm also building markets in a few cities, as much for the extra happiness as it is that I just don't have anything else to build other than more ancient trash units.

Step 4:: Profit?

We'll see...

My last domestic project of note is my Moai, which will be done T105 with the help of 2 chops. I'd feel sad about not having the Moai done in time for my GA, but I guess its OK since I'm not working very many water tiles here, am I? XD




Neighbor Thoughts

Just spitballing here.

Gavagai: Our relations are decent, and we've exchanged maps a few times now. In the long run it's probably more of what I'd call a "business relationship" more than what I'd call an actual ally. I'm also concerned because Gav's power is spiking hard, and I think he's going to try horchering Grimace. Gav's starting area is almost as bad as mine, and he was forced to plant some shitty cities just to get some of his resources and secure his borders. He's got a decent empire now, and has risen to near the top of the scoreboard in various metrics in large part because of this move:




However, his economy is down-right terrible and his long-term prospects bleak. His main neighbor, Borsche, to the east, is fairly strong, and his other land neighbors are both either as strong or stronger (Donovan and myself) and also much more difficult to invade due to geography. So, that leaves Grimace, perhaps the weakest player in the game, to his west. Gav's got this really awkward mountain range between himself and Grimace - there's no gap in it, like there is between HAK and myself/Borsche. But, Gav has some boats now, as I can see at least one island city of his own the map. So, where's all that power for? Gotta be for Grimace, I think, with a 2-pronged attack by boat from the north and by land w/ horchers to the south. Removing Grimace's control from this area will let Gav grow up to about 15-16 cities, whereas he is otherwise stuck at 10, like me.

HAK: still hostile, and now up to 12 cities, gaining like 5 cities in just the last few turns. One of them was a barb city, I think? HAK had one of the best starting areas, and at one point I estimated that he had room for 15 cities total, assuming that Borsche boxed him out of "his" backfill area. One of his recent plants was this, right before our enforced 10T peace treaty expired:




Which I guess is his way of saying "fuck you" to me. Well, fuck you too, HAK! I have 3 galleys now, so if you try invading again I'm gonna blockade all of your ICTRs away. HAK is lucky that he has a small border with Commodore, so he may be to see the Knight rush coming and stop it cold. Thus, Retep looks like Com's most likely target.

Borsche: we've got decent relations; he asked for a 28g loan a few turns ago, which I assume was just to get to currency. I know Borsche well enough to know that while he might go total war and invade me at some point, he wouldn't default on a petty loan like this. Borsche is doing well, and is now up to 11 cities, with room for 4 backfill I think, based on a relatively recent map trade. Borsche's starting area was about average, perhaps a bit above average. I think that he'll want to eventually invade HAK or dogpile on me, if one of my other neighbors invades. The Ottoman hammam has been REALLY nice for him here.

Elkad: Elkad is... not doing very well overall. He had one of the best starting positions on the map, with loads of happy resources and a huge backfill area, but hasn't leveraged it into anything. He had a huge period where he stalled at 4 cities, until finally starting to plant them again recently. He's now up to 9. He's far, far below the rest of the pack in CY and MFG, although, interestingly, he's doing ok on tech - he was 2nd of civs I've met to Currency, and then also founded CoL a few turns ago. He's maintained a decent power but I'm afraid will soon start falling behind. We actually have decent relations now, I think; I haven't seen him posturing much near our borders when I was chopping down trees for the mids, other than bringing an axe and spear to guard 2 workers when The Hague expanded to 3rd ring - interesting because that turns out to be his only horses. 0_0 Elkad looks like he still has room to get up to 11 cities.

Donovan: Donovan also stalled out on cities for awhile in mid-game, but has since come roaring back. Donvoan, along with Elkad and Commmodore, also has one of the best positions on the map, with two private islands, one of them huge, as well as loads of happy resources and food. I'm not sure how Donvoan's economy is doing... despite his high happy-cap and many high-yield tiles (2 gems, a gold, and furs), he got Currency after I did. Part of his problem is that he's still been building far too much military. He's not as big as Comm or Gav, but still carrying the weight of around 200k soldiers. What was the plan for these? Ancient era warfare is too slow and has too high of an opportunity cost to pay off, and if you don't use them at all then its just dead weight. Donovan is up to 11 cities and I think will have room for 15.

Commodore

Commodore is at least a dozen turns ahead of any other civ in just about every metric. Again, all this goes back to his highly advantageous map position - 8 unique happies, Protective Terraces, more riverland, no jungle, more backfill, a huge private island, and the 4 weakest civs on the map as his neighbors. The bulb+Oracle gambit ended up being huge too, of course, probably putting him up +3 classical era techs by itself. He's so far ahead that not only is he likely the only civ with MC, he's also had MC for a long enough time to build a forge AND the Colossus in a non-capital city. Yikes. His capital is IIRC size 13 now, and I believe he'll top out at 13-14 cities until he conquers more land.

My only hope I have left is that it seems dtay is not too involved with this game, or at least Commodore is doing Commodore-thangs whether dtay likes it or not. At any rate, Com does not seem to be enamoured with the narrative of his front-runner position and is thus taking steps to sabotage himself somewhat. First of all, he has been spiking a huge power rating. Why does he need this huge power? I can't imagine its because of Grimace, and can't be because of HAK, who's been skirmishing with two other neighbors. Definitely not with Elkad, as the last thing he'll want to do is weaken Elkad for me. Does retep have a huge standing army or something? I find it hard to believe. Rather, Commodore probably sidelined HBR and/or IW and started whipping in horchers and/or swords, rather than focusing on economy to get Knights ASAP, because he just can't help himself but play like Commodore no matter what position he finds himself in.

For another example, he's also done this:




One of these was to put EP on me the turn after we met, no clue about the other. What is the point of throwing this commerce away? This is at least 2 turns of break-even research down the toilet, and thus delays the appearance of your first Knights by 2 turns as well. Will having my graphs 10T sooner really help you make that much better strategic decisions estimates than a 2 turn head-start on Knights? You must have my map by know, and that should tell you all you need to know about me. As for the other bump, maybe for someone's (retep's?) research visibility? Here's a hint, based on his score you probably got about 6-7 techs on the guy. Yeesh dude, this one is yours to lose.

[Tsargon]

Do you really think Borsche has the necessary darkness in his heart to turn on you Joey?

[GermanJoey]

Yeah, totally. If Borsche is anything, he's a wild and horny animal. A fat, wild, and horny animal. In fact, that will probably be on his IRL tombstone one day: "Here lies Borsche, X Hamster legend, who died as he lived: as a fat, wild, and horny animal."

But he wouldn't stiff me on something petty like a 28g loan, I just can't see it.

[GermanJoey]

If he does, btw, I'm gonna see if Manga will secretly give me his password in the badgame pitboss (he might, since he seems pretty checked out) and I'll troll him to oblivion.

[GermanJoey]

A quick double update, T104-T105, as T105 rolled like 3 hours after T104. 0_0

The haughty lord Dio strikes an arrogant pose and shouts THE MIDS! ...time freezes, and suddenly the Indians of the Mardi Gras Indian Nation find themselves organized into a system of representative democracy.




My Moai is done. I refuse to post a picture of a completed size-6 Moai in a golden age though, it is just too sad. Maybe I'll grab a pic on the last turn of the GA, when it'll be a bit bigger and less embarrassing.




Demos are looking better now, as I'm gaining heaps of population every turn as my cities grow onto already-improved tiles. Com's CY is keeping pace here though even with his cities already so much bigger... christ. Interestingly, I was actually #2 CY T105, as Borsche got a city of his razed; more on that later. At least I'm still doing OK with land area, and my GNP has gone through the roof. I just 2-turned metal casting (starting on forges everywhere, ignoring the half-completed markets everywhere), and will 2-turn IW next. I believe I'll get HBR after that, then evaluate whether I need Construction or not before Knights.




My borders have been peaceful. Perhaps too peaceful, Donovan and HAK are being very careless with their workers meaning that they are no longer scared of me. Especially HAK; I mean, Donovan and I have been peaceful for awhile (although I still wouldn't leave 4 FW's unguarded on my border no matter how peaceful I was with someone - that's gotta be about half his workforce!), but HAK and I just went to war about a dozen turns ago. HAK is very foolish to chop the trees here, by the way, as now I can easily 1-turn his city from the fog. However, for now I'll leave him be, maybe we can eventually recover our routes.







What hasn't been peaceful, though, is the Borsche/Gavagai border! Gavagai has been spiking power like crazy, as I've mentioned in the last update, and to my surprise he has just invaded Borsche with a big stack of Numidian Cavalry, taking the city of Dunkin' Donuts. Perhaps his free coffee was cold?? At any rate, this is first blood of PB25, not counting my sanity of course.

I was so sure he would attack Grimace... this gambit here seems quite desperate. Looking at his GNP graph, his economy has totally tanked by this point, although it was superior enough early (double gold mines, heh) that he's still managed to acquire the whole religious line up to Monarchy, plus Math and HBR. So, he's probably got close to the same amount of total beakerage researched as I do right now, but will soon fall behind.

I sent some Impis down to guard my chokepoint and spied about a half-dozen damaged ones, with who knows how many in the city itself. Gavagai had about +100k power over me T104, with which, subtracting 10k for the HBR tech, we can estimate as approximately (100k-10k)/6k = 15 Numidian Cavalries, assuming he has about the same amount of garrison/support troops as I do. Yeesh. Looks like this invasion is for real, although he did not whip any more last turn. I unfortunately sent him a dye for gold t103, which he accepted; I regret it now, as I'd want to help Borsche (who did indeed repay his loan despite the invasion; I tip my hat to you, noble gamer) but I won't declare war on him to cancel it. Well, good luck buddy, you're probably on your own here. From eyeballing the map, I think Gav's strategy will be something like this:




Numids leap out of Kerkouane on T104, hitting DD on the first turn of the war. He had just a single, unpromoed axe here to cover, so I assume that's gonna be a garrison and he'll move out of the city with 2-movers only. My spy boy saw many axes earlier, 40 turns or so ago, so where are they now? My thoughts is that he'll next move a big mixed army out of Leptis consisting of mostly 1-movers, either on T105 or T106. He'll also then move whatever healthy Numids he has left at DD forward a tile. Next turn, he can fork Wendys and Burger King, which is making me smirk just to type. If borsche stuffs defenders into Wendys, Gav can hit BK; otherwise, he can hit Wendy's with a combined force. Defenders from Wendys won't be able to hit the Numid stack because of the river crossing; they'll actually only get 50% odds against shock Numids, and Gav did have a few shock numids! Furthermore, these attackers will be vulnerable from the big 1-mover stack on Gav's turn. So, it would be a really bad idea to attack out from there.

At any rate, I have no idea what Gavagai is actually going to do or whether this mythical 1-mover stack actually exists. I haven't had sight down here for ages and probably won't for ages more; Alphabet doesnt seem to be a very hot tech this game. However, I think this stack should exist somewhere, or at least I'd have formed such a stack if I wanted to take Wendys. I just hope this war is worth it for him... his economy will be even slower now and Borsche will probably be at his throat for a long time, as he's never been one to let his precious burgers go easily.