[Spoilers] It's time to play the music

[ipecac]

Actually Serfdom might be more useful - windmills get an extra hammer and workers work faster.

Hmm. Seems to me that we can prioritise either the top part of the tree or Machinery, but not both.

Caste is as normal and would be handy for dropping into in golden ages for GP generation.

Yeah, we don't need CoL until firing the first GA.

[Haram]

Windmills seem nice in this mod, but you would want to work your floods cottages, bonus tiles and common mines seem a good "muscle" supplement.

Mills are great during GA, but it's important to have them soon enough to get a good effect. My rule of thumb for mills is that I go for them, if I am able to get machinery 10 turns before GA to add a good number of new improvements and use the additional food to grow cities some more, before the kickoff. If you are not able to get machinery in time, it's probably better to chase some bonusses in the upper part of the tree with common mines and prepare your land well, before another GA.

Edit disclaimer: bear in mind I know very little about RtR.

[Old Harry]

Turn 50

Pindi got Stonehenge.


We got more clams and whipped a Settler and a worker.

Did you consider, how many forests you need to spare in your capital?

Yeah, we've got 10 at the moment, Marble-Maths chops give 45 hammers, MoM is 450 hammers and I'm anticipating whipping a unit into a barracks into a settler to create ~100 hammers overflow. The city will be making ~20 hpt so:
100*1.5 = 150
(20*1.5) * 1 = 30 or * 2 = 60 or * 4 = 90
(30*1.5) * 6 = 270 or * 5 = 225 or * 4 = 180
=450 or =435 or =450
Meaning we can 1-turn it with 6 chops or 4-turn it with 4 chops. I'm planning to chop one more forest into a worker so that would leave 3 forests for the (200 hammer) SoZ or some other wonder.

Actually Serfdom might be more useful - windmills get an extra hammer and workers work faster.

Hmm. Seems to me that we can prioritise either the top part of the tree or Machinery, but not both.

Very true. Tech path now will be a variation on Writing-Maths-Masonry-Sailing-Calendar, then
- option 1 is that we'll have overseas contacts and Alphabet will be very useful, then Currency with the discount since trade and building wealth will be disproportionately important with this map
- option 2 is Asthetics-Lit for SoZ, epics and perhaps the Parthenon. I doubt The Great Lib would be that useful in a hammer-heavy cap and we don't have the production to build it in our commerce cities. Getting Music for the Great Artist would be nice to launch the first GA, but being CRE we don't really need the rest of what Music brings unless we're going for a culture win.
- option 3 is Myst-Med-Priesthood for Zigurats - at this point we'll have 7-10 cities and costs will be rising to 4-5gpt for new cities. Espionage is nerfed with no active missions allowed, but getting research visibility on rivals is A Very Good Thing. The religions are only just falling now (REM Buddhism on t39 and OT4E Hindu on t48 so Oracle will be a little late, but not game-breakingly so, although with how much easier hammers are to get than commerce it's pretty powerful)
- option 4 is Metal Casting-Machinery for forges and windmills, neither of which is a huge priority

I'd probably favour option 1 if we get a couple of overseas contacts. Then if SoZ is still available option 2, if not option 3. After option 3 we could get Monarchy for that revolt in our first GA, then get CoL and Feudalism during the GA for Caste and Serfdom (although I'd like to skip CoL to show off that we've got Zigs it probably makes more sense to get it) and perhaps Civil Service (although a hammer-heavy bureau cap doesn't appeal too much).

Caste is as normal and would be handy for dropping into in golden ages for GP generation.

Yeah, we don't need CoL until firing the first GA.

I wonder if we'll need it even then? Actually yes it would be good to have all our hammer cities producing the GPPs while our commerce cities keep working their cottages.

[Old Harry]

Windmills seem nice in this mod, but you would want to work your floods cottages, bonus tiles and common mines seem a good "muscle" supplement.

Mills are great during GA, but it's important to have them soon enough to get a good effect. My rule of thumb for mills is that I go for them, if I am able to get machinery 10 turns before GA to add a good number of new improvements and use the additional food to grow cities some more, before the kickoff. If you are not able to get machinery in time, it's probably better to chase some bonusses in the upper part of the tree with common mines and prepare your land well, before another GA.

Edit disclaimer: bear in mind I know very little about RtR.

I don't think I ever build them in BTS, I'm a bit too wedded to specializing cities. But with the hilly terrain and +1 hammer from serfdom they'll be much more use here. Especially if we land MoM and get our extra-long golden ages. That said both our main commerce cities are going to need to be size 10 for windmills to get any use - although the gold city could use lots. What do folks think of building them on riverside desert hills over non-river plains hills in a commerce city?

[ipecac]

It also has a couple of desert hills that could take a windmill. I'm pondering moving the capital here or to Animal when Bureau comes in, but I just don't think the return is going to be huge - anyone know the best way to value it?

How good is the improved Vassalage?

[wetbandit]

Wish Serfdom could come earlier to help improve all of the FP. I've not seen it extensively used here, but the extra windmill hammers and worker speed is interesting, given the lack of food. If OT4E continues to forego slavery though, it's comforting to not need to be in it for military purposes.

Leaning Option1->Option3. Definitely want to have HR available for first GA because of happiness concerns. Also good news that there is an early religion on our continent, here's to a lucky early spread.

Not enthused by Option 2. Is SoZ boosted by marble? Changelist just says its no longer boosted by ivory. Will check later at home. Personally, not too enthused by SoZ as non-CHM. Yes, you can get L3 horse units with vassalage/theo/stables/rax; but I think Great Library is a better wonder on that path. With foodless map, 8 Scientist GPP is very helpful, even if it isn't a traditional NE city. Agree though that Music GA would be fantastic with inherent difficulties in generating GPs with low food.

Could go either way WRT windmills on riverside desert hills vs PH, depends on if the city needs food.

I'd say new vassalage is much more palatable with medium upkeep and is very helpful because of the XP here. Lvl2 for non-horse is nice on this relatively hilly map for G2.

[Old Harry]

Turn 51
More food!

How good is the improved Vassalage?

Vassalage is medium maintenance, +2XP and it reduces army costs depending on empire size:
- 1-9 pop - 5 free units (above the 10-11 you get as standard)
- 10-19 pop - 6 free units (above the 12-13 you get as standard)
- 20-29 pop - 7 free units (above the 14-15 you get as standard)
etc

I'm mostly concerned at the 1200 beakers for CS and the high maintenance for Bureau. Once we move the palace and build Oxford/Wall St I'll be keener, but I don't see us aiming for it in the first GA. Which leaves the problem of what do we want to do medium-term.

Normally I'd aim to be early to guilds if Bureau didn't appeal, but I don't see any easy conquests in this field. Perhaps Nationalism for super-Mercantilism (2 specs and you keep your trade routes) and a shot at Taj?

Leaning Option1->Option3. Definitely want to have HR available for first GA because of happiness concerns. Also good news that there is an early religion on our continent, here's to a lucky early spread.

Yeah, I'm wondering if we should worry about Organised Religion before we get a spread, cos that might not happen...

Not enthused by Option 2. Is SoZ boosted by marble? Changelist just says its no longer boosted by ivory. Will check later at home. Personally, not too enthused by SoZ as non-CHM. Yes, you can get L3 horse units with vassalage/theo/stables/rax; but I think Great Library is a better wonder on that path. With foodless map, 8 Scientist GPP is very helpful, even if it isn't a traditional NE city. Agree though that Music GA would be fantastic with inherent difficulties in generating GPs with low food.

No multiplier on SoZ, but getting 10XP knights with Vassalage+Barracks+Stable means either flanking or amphibious... And then we get Commando units with only five settled GGs + West Point.

I'd say new vassalage is much more palatable with medium upkeep and is very helpful because of the XP here. Lvl2 for non-horse is nice on this relatively hilly map for G2.

Very true - a gang of G2 Crossbows or Muskets would be nice wouldn't it?

[Old Harry]

Turn 52

We'll settle city four next turn. Only Pindicator (PRO/IMP) is quicker. With cities on t1, t32, t39 and t44 and Stonehenge I think he's winning the early game. We should be able to dotmap down here in a couple of turns.

[Old Harry]

Turn 53

Oh dear.


The fourth city is called Beaker, forgot a pic. Anyone want to play with the sandbox? The very rough run through I just did makes me think we'll get calendar about t90 if we don't crash the economy totally.

[ipecac]

The very rough run through I just did makes me think we'll get calendar about t90 if we don't crash the economy totally.

So t90 MoM? I'm not that worried about the economy crashing since we can always build Zigs.