[Spoilers] The games they are a changin' - Ichabod Civ 6 PBEM 3 as England

[pindicator]

Agree with your conclusion 100%. I think if you consider what each side can do with the time it takes to reach our goals against the other, then it makes more sense to go after suboptimal first. We might need to keep eyes on Kaiser, but does he have anything more than the warrior? Doesn't seem like he can threaten us until he builds more units.

Looking forward to seeing the horsemen in action!

[Ichabod]

He has one warrior and a builder, likely finishing another warrior soon. That builder can perhaps improve his iron resource and if he finishes IW, he can upgrade those warriors to swords. Actually, if DotF spreads to Osaka, we could be looking at strength 55 swords, on a coast tile.   

That's actually a pretty tough defence, but otherwise Kaiser's production is pretty limited. He has at most 6 production from yields within his city borders (3 from tiles and 3 from palace) and after he gets IW, he'd need a Camp to build more swords. Finally, I don't think DotF will spread there easily, as the city is already size 2.

In a less pessimistic scenario, I expect to face some tough units, but we'd have the numbers, the reinforcements and he'd always be threatened by the City Center being vulnerable (as bonuses don't work in City Center defense).

By the way, I'm not even sure if the Palace building goes to the new Capital of a Civ. Osaka is strength 10 right now, so it doesn't have the +3 palace guard bonus. I wonder if he gets the other palace bonuses at all.

Finally, if worse comes to worst, we will start getting +3 GG GPP per turn this turn, and we can run some Camp Projects to speed this up (albeit at half production per turn, sadly).

[pindicator]

I wonder if the Japan bonus has the same situation as Defender of the Faith - where it doesn't apply to cities?

Also, is there a way to see how much gold Kaiser has? He obviously can't upgrade if he's low on gold.

[Ichabod]

The most interesting thing that happened this past turn was that Bacchus founded his religion. I think of Bacchus as my main rival in this game, I thought that before the game begun and I think so in the current state. I don't think Bacchus is that good of a micromanager, not to the level of guys like novice, dtay, TBS. But he is part of the school of players that know how to win, more than anything else. They know what they need to do at all times, considering the current state of the game. I think he's part of the school of mackoti, OT4E, Gavagai and recently, in PBEM2, Alhambram. This is opponent analysis by no means a serious thought, but it's a fun little exercise. In game, I rather think of my opponents as competent bots without personality, I rather not put much faith on hoping people will behave as I want them to, except if that's the only option (again, I sound like a pro here, but this is also not very serious).

Anyway, on to the game and the reason I decided to talk about Bacchus, his religion choices were jesuit Education (theater square and campus districts avaiable with faith) and the 30% cheaper religious units. But the most interesting part is his pantheon: God of the Harvest (you get faith equal to the yield of harvested resources/features).

I recently read a very interesting chain of posts in civfanatics about how this pantheon is broken. People didn't want to believe it, but a specific poster was insisting it is bette than every other pantheon. Why? Because the value of chops/harvets keeps growing the longer the game goes, while the faith price of units and stuff don't follow a similar pattern. So, mid to late game, you get a very high amount of faith with every chop, while the cost of things remain the same.

This choice makes me think Bacchus knows what he's doing. His religion choices also allowed him to go on two different directions: go for a science/culture lead with JE or try for a sneaky religious win. Right now, the game is open for such a try, since the only other religion in the world was kind of neutered and tehre's no other religion on sight. Bacchus has a DoF with Rowain, so he can send missionaries there mostly unopposed. With Kaiser leaving the game soon enough, that leaves me and Suboptimal. Anyway, long story short, I can never sign a DoF with Bacchus, end of story. And, of course, getting a religion to defend against this becomes more important.

Anyway, I like the path Bacchus decided to go for, it's an interesting strategy. His plan, considering what I think the world looks like, will be to get a science lead on Rowain and get some land on the back of that. All things considered, if I ever want an alliance, Rowain is likely the most appropriate player, though it'll be hard to make a case if I'm leading the game.

*I got cut short due to work. I'll continue later with the actual turn report*

[pindicator]

Very good points about Bacchus.

And it really leads me to ask this question: how do you plan on winning?

[Ichabod]

I wonder if the Japan bonus has the same situation as Defender of the Faith - where it doesn't apply to cities?

Also, is there a way to see how much gold Kaiser has? He obviously can't upgrade if he's low on gold.

My bet is that every unit bonus works the same, where it isn't applied to units inside cities. DotF, Japanese bonus, promotions like +7 against melee and unit bonus like spear versus cavalry. None of these work inside cities, I think.

Kaiser has pretty decent gold +200. He can definitely afford some upgrades.

Very good points about Bacchus.

And it really leads me to ask this question:  how do you plan on winning?

My current plan is the following: get a demographics lead by conquest, to a point where I can prevent my opponents from winning and prevent them from doing game winning moves. What I mean with the last part is, basically, conquering Suboptimal. If I do that, I'll be in a position to intervene if Bacchus takes on Rowain or if Rowain takes on Bacchus. In that situation, I'll have 3 players worth of land, while the others have only their own without the possibility of getting past that.

Regarding actual win conditions, I'm not sure. Lets see how things go. Conquest seems the most likely, at least right now. The fact that Rowain and Bacchus are on different continents can give me a nice edge, if I ever start taking their cities.

[Ichabod]

I forgot to upload the pictures from the previous turns, so we go straight to turn 70. Last turn, I killed Suboptimal's archer on the iron with an archer shot and a horseman, since he didn't move his unit away.



Suboptimal shot my warrior. It's very strange that the archer inside Dalwhinnie never actually healed. I wonder if Suboptimal was shooting the Camp with him? Anyway, I made the obvious moves. Attacked with the archers and the horses (one of the western horses could attack over the river) and it was enough. I didn't even need to attack with the warrior.



I got the Eureka for Apprenticeship and Iron Working, which is pretty nice. Feudalism Inspiration is also secured. Dalwhinnie was later renamed Ballad of a Thin Man. The horseman inside the city has a promotion, so I can insta heal him. The northwestern horse will investigate near Glenfarclas. Both other horses will heal for a turn. I think I can have 4 horses and 3 archers attacking Glenfarclas in about 3 turns. This plan can change, but it's basically what I'm hoping to accomplish. The warrior also has a promotion, so I can use him as a scout of the area, likely taking Tortoise (+10 strength against ranged attacks). The HC is also arriving.

In fact, scratch that. I can attack Glenfarclas with 4 horsemen (2 full health, 2 almost full health) 2 turns from now. Will that be enough to capture the city? Probably. It's either that or waiting one more turn for the archer support... I don't know. It'll depend on what the scout horse reveals next turn. Perhaps Suboptimal has some spears around, which could be a problem.

Suboptimal finished his Camp, but now he doesn't have Iron to actually produce Swordsman. The best unit avaiable for him is Heavy Chariots, I think. To put a stop to my attcak, I think he needs Xbows or some horsemen/swordsmen fast. I'm making 3 GG GPP, but that will take too long to help in this campaign, unfortunately.

Suboptimal's power is very low. It was 98 this turn, while mine is over 350. And he lost yet another acher + a city. He hasn't started walls in any of his other cities, so I don't think he can finish them in Glenfarclas, except if he chops them.

This split of the war between Kaiser and Suboptimal's fronts is a bit annoying, but I need to seize the opportunity while I have the upper hand. If Suboptimal's defenses are also poor in Glenfarclas, the city will fall easily, and while I can't really reinforce my army right now (I don't have the appropriate cards in place, nor builders for chops), I won't be losing units if I'm careful. And if I happen to capture Glenkinchie, that's also a free swordsman to join the ranks.



Emanwhile, I'm assembling a party to clear the west of barbs, which I expect to do before they get actual horseman. Unfortunately, my units got battered, so I have to take some time to heal.

Finally, now that Industrial Zones will be avaiable, I'm thinking of placing one 1W of the Capital. It's only a 3 possible adjacency spot, while the tile 2N would get 4 adjacency bonus. But the northern spot would need a lot of gold to purchase tiles. The other advantage of 2N is that we will have an elegible spot for the Ruhr Valley, but I'm not sure if it'll ever come to that. If we actually got it, though, the Capital would be a production monster (in a future far, far away).

Well, considering my main objective for the IZ right now is to get the GEng avaiable, I guess we could go for the 2N spot. And getting some grass mines up on the Capital wouldn't be bad, as they are 2/3 tiles with Apprenticeship. Notice that the Capital will actually start growing a bit, after the watermill and the 2 wheat farms.

And one more thing, we really need to be the Suzerains of Zanzibar. The Suzarain bonus gives 2 unique luxuries and the city has 2 unique luxuries on its terrain. That's all of our happiness problems solved. Problem is, everybody knows that, and the city is far from me. We are currently at 2 envoys (same as Bacchus and Rowain, I think), but the quest is a bad one, send a TR (when we have no TRs that can reach it). I guess we'll have to take Jerusalem to open up a TR to Zanzibar.   I'm thinking of pouring our envoys there, which won't hurt anyway, since I'm investing in Commercial Hubs as well.

[pindicator]

Congratulations again on another English victory! I'm amazed at how casually you've made conquering cities sound!

Continuing the blitz on towards Glenfarcas seems prudent. I see that city also has dyes, adding another luxury. How concerned are you about Rowain getting involved (either him attacking Suboptimal or trying to take a shot against our armies to stop our advance and then mopping up Suboptimal himself)? I notice he has a scout poking around our forces.

Looking at the mini-map I have to confess that I am a tiny bit concerned about supply lines and the time it would take to replenish any forces. Perhaps we would be better served at sending our next settler east after all: there is a river-side location north of Rolling Stone that would help solidify our position in the east, and that we could use as a jumping off point for capturing all those city-states west of Glenfarcas. We already are claiming marble and silver with these captures so there is less reason to go west of the capital for those resources.

Glad to hear that the capital got it's water mill project complete! Once we get Feudalism and a third farm there it will grow even faster. I like the 2N location for the IZ of it keeps Ruhr as an option. Our capital will be amazing with that wonder, should the game go that far.

[Ichabod]

Congratulations again on another English victory! I'm amazed at how casually you've made conquering cities sound!

Continuing the blitz on towards Glenfarcas seems prudent. I see that city also has dyes, adding another luxury. How concerned are you about Rowain getting involved (either him attacking Suboptimal or trying to take a shot against our armies to stop our advance and then mopping up Suboptimal himself)? I notice he has a scout poking around our forces.

Looking at the mini-map I have to confess that I am a tiny bit concerned about supply lines and the time it would take to replenish any forces. Perhaps we would be better served at sending our next settler east after all: there is a river-side location north of Rolling Stone that would help solidify our position in the east, and that we could use as a jumping off point for capturing all those city-states west of Glenfarcas. We already are claiming marble and silver with these captures so there is less reason to go west of the capital for those resources.

Glad to hear that the capital got it's water mill project complete! Once we get Feudalism and a third farm there it will grow even faster. I like the 2N location for the IZ of it keeps Ruhr as an option. Our capital will be amazing with that wonder, should the game go that far.

Yeah, I'm past the dazzlement of capturing cities that I had in my first games. No more epopees from me.

That being said, I should have been more careful with my movement when capturing the city. If I had 1-moved my archers north before shooting, I could occupy the desert hill tile with one of the archers on this next turn, which means I could attack the city with 1 archer and 4 horses on the following turn. That shot by the archer would mean compound damage, as the first horseman would get a -1 strength city and so on. I actually think that single move could make capturing Glenfarclas in 2 turns a sure thing, as opposed to a gamble, as I see it right now. The overall outcome, tough, is pretty set, I think. Suboptimal can't save the city and perhaps moving more carefully, as to avoid unnecessary damage/casualities could be the right move.

Rowain has non-neglegible power (close to 200, I think), so it's a valid thought. The thing is that he only has 1 horse and no iron, and no Camps also. So the best he can field is archers and HCs. I doubt he'd do something to avoid us capturing Glenfarclas, but after that, I can see it happening. This next turn I'll scout a bit with my horses and see if there are any Rowain units around. If we happen to capture Glenfarclas, we reasses. We need to think if we want to press further on Suboptimal, if we go back to finish Bacchus. And what Rowain is planning will sure go into those thoughts. Suboptimal's last cities are on his continent and he has a DoF with Bacchus, he has all he needs to attack (either us or Sub).

I think I know what spot you are referring to and I llike it. That area has a lot of jungle/forests to help speed things up and taking the northern CSs is surely a nice plan. The City States are starting to become very developed cities, and still pretty weak. If only we weren't at war with 2 different players... More seriously, regarding reinforcements, I think the best way to go about them is chopping horsemen/swordsmen. That shows the importance of finishing Kaiser. We have two horses in Rolling Stone, just waiting to be chopped once the penalty goes away.

Another interesting thing is that we are set on getting Stirrups/Machinery (knights and xbows), if we want to. We have all the Eurekas, except for Stirrups, which will come as soon as we get Feudalism (which we'll have all the inspirations for - in 1/2 turns). I think we'll hit a very nice sweet spot at that time. Our GG will be born (which gets bonus for medieval and classical) and we'll hopefully have a nicely promoted army. If we can field some HCs to upgrade, we can have a very dangerous army, very quickly. That would be aimed at Rowain, most likely. The main problem with that idea is how we would go about upgrading our units. We'll have some Commercial Hubs done soon (well, at least one of them), but our GPT is still fairly lacking. Perhaps we should start prioritizing this right now (avoiding wastage and prioritizing gold tiles - even some barb camp hunting can help), so we don't waste time waiting for gold bars to fill, after we already have Stirrups/Machinery.

*Malefic thoughts: we can shoot for a double GG plan, by running Camp projects, for example. We already have a Camp, we can try to finish the Desolation Row Camp after the Ram and, if everything goes as planned, we can take Suboptimal's Capital Camp*

Unfortunately, Glenfarclas doesn't have dyes, but rather both northern cities have them. The map hasn't been easy in the luxury department, but we can manage. Zen meditation will be a great boost and hopefully the Colosseum as well. I wonder when the district discounts will start kicking in. I'd love to build a discounted Entertainment Complex when we go for the Colosseum.

I think the watermill finishes next turn. I agree about the long term potential of the Capital. Right now, the main thing holding us back there is amenities. Everything being said, though, I think it makes more sense to go with a Commercial Hub as the Capital second district, right now. I don't want to waste gold buying the tile we need for the IZ, nor does the benefit of an IZ right now matches the one from the CH. The IZ wouldn't even get an adjacency right now. The CH gets 2 gold now, +4 gold when we get another envoy in Zanzibar and another TR. The Colosseum would surely be nice, but the CH bonus are more tangible and more in line with the strategy of attacking with Knights/Xbows.

What do you think?

[pindicator]

If we only need Stirrups to get Knights, that seems like a fantastic way to continue pushing the military advantage. How many turns would that give us to build some heavy chariots?

If knights are our next objective then making a commercial hub makes a lot of sense. We could even potentially use heavy chariots we build now as a secondary force to finish off Kaiser.

Another way you can get some more money is by pillaging. I know we are pressed to capture before walls come up but if you get the option, mines and lumber mills give beakers, quarries give culture, plantations = faith, and pastures & camps give gold. Plus farms heal.

What kind of army can we put together for finishing off Kaiser in the near term? If we could put together some heavy chariots they should be able to take out his last city and then be available for upgrading to knights. That would then free two of our cities from production malus.

Actually, if our core cities cannot spare production for building heavy chariots then it may be worth eating the production hit on 1 or 2 chops just to get the units out. Hard to say if that's worth it without seeing all the details.