[SPOILERS] TheArchduke blasts into Space as Russia

[TheArchduke]

Turn 61

So like everyone else around we enter a golden age. For us it is tremendous useful.

For all the good it will do with my bumbling around atm.:D

   

So we have a bit of a barb issue, and in the east a cree scout.

Apart from that we finish Mil Tradition next turn and switch into maneuver, I want to be able to take care of barbs.

I want to delay getting Drama until I can put down 2 commercial districts so that is why I put down a granary in Funky as well. Fogger´s 3rd district will... take some time.

   

We finally get rid of that barb camp and 2 archers with DotF should take care of that nasty horse.

This is why I dislike CR by now. Inspiration could be kept with Autocracy or Oligarchy. Sigh. The GS is down to 410 faith and I am 5 points behind. Should I stay with it? I do not think so.

Builders are 90 faith a piece so I can get a builder out every 3rd turn, so the ancestral hall is basically useless. Except for the promotion of a governor.

   

[williams482]

Builders are 90 faith a piece so I can get a builder out every 3rd turn, so the ancestral hall is basically useless. Except for the promotion of a governor.

Strongly, strongly disagree. Each builder is three turns of faith production you aren't putting into a settler, and the free builders pop up in the perfect place and time to get maximum value out of them.
We're not going to delay settling to get the hall up, but we want it as fast as we can possibly get it.

[Sullla]

I couldn't agree more with williams on this. Faith put into builders is faith not going into settlers. That doesn't mean you should never faith-purchase a builder, but it does mean that there's a real opportunity cost on the spending. The Ancestral Hall is still a tremendous deal since it grants free builders (aside from incrementing the cost of each future builder upwards by 4 production). With each builder costing roughly 70 production right now, it pays for itself after settling two cities, not even counting the governor promotion that it unlocks. Furthermore, you can't move on to the tier 2 government building (which will be the Grand Master's Chapel: spend faith to purchase units) until you construct the tier 1 government building. So it's a really important building to have, and if Fogger does nothing more than produce Ancestral Hall into Grand Master's Chapel for the rest of the game, it will have done its job beautifully.

Other stuff:

* I see you managed to clear the terrible barbarian camp in the northwest, very nice. Hopefully the two archers can clear the way forward to Atredies for the settler. You don't want Fogger dropping back down to size 1 but it should be able to purchase another settler for Spice Melange in two more turns when it hits size 3.

* The first settler cost 234 faith, for whatever reason slightly less than the 238 faith that we were projecting. This does mean that Russia should be on track to produce the next settler for 280 faith and the following settler for 322 faith. You already have enough faith to get triple faith-purchased settlers just as we were hoping. Once they're out on the field and moving towards their destinations, it might be useful to purchase a missionary next out of Hell March's shrine. Three charges from a missionary would likely be enough to convert Funky, Just Do It, and Act On Instinct. You'll need the religion in these cities to gain Defender of the Faith, plus you won't get the Choral Music benefit from shrines/temples without it either.

* A few turns of Maneuver for double horsemen out of Hell March and Funky feels like a solid choice. You'll have to drop the chase for Hypatia but that's OK, all of the Medieval Great Scientists will be at least somewhat useful and Russia will land one of them eventually. Probably better to avoid spending faith when 300-400 faith is worth 1.5 settlers. The shrine in Hell March will take you up to 25 culture/turn and that will mean a quick trip through Drama and Poetry and Recorded History. After that, I would also grab Theology so that you can construct a temple at the capital for the sweet +4 faith / +4 culture combo. Choral Music is pretty awesome.

I want to delay getting Drama until I can put down 2 commercial districts so that is why I put down a granary in Funky as well.

* On this note: you should *NOT* delay Drama and Poetry! Let's leave aside the fact that Hell March is 9 turns away from growth to size 7 and Funky is probably 15 turns away, far too long to be waiting. I'll post the district discount formula again here:

C = total number of completed districts (regardless of type)
P = placed districts of the specific type in question, both completed and uncompleted
A = available districts to build based on techs/civics discovered

Discount applies if both of these are true:
1) C >= A
2) C/A > P

Right now the constant values are C = 6 (three Lavras, two Campuses, and the Government Plaza) and A = 5 (Lavra, Campus, Encampment, Commercial, Government Plaza). You are totally fine to finish Drama and Poetry which will only take A up to 6 where C = A = 6 and the district discount will still apply to the first Commercial district. The tech you need to avoid right now is Games and Recreation (Entertainment districts) which takes A up to 7 and would rule out the discount. But by the time you're ready to research Games and Recreation, Just Do It will be finished with its Lavra and take C up to 7 as well to keep the discount in play. Long story short: you do not have to avoid Drama and Poetry!

* Did iron appear as a resource anywhere on the map? Or did you swap off of Bronze Working and leave it unfinished? No iron anywhere in all this territory would be pretty unlucky.

[TheArchduke]

Builders are 90 faith a piece so I can get a builder out every 3rd turn, so the ancestral hall is basically useless. Except for the promotion of a governor.

Strongly, strongly disagree. Each builder is three turns of faith production you aren't putting into a settler, and the free builders pop up in the perfect place and time to get maximum value out of them.
We're not going to delay settling to get the hall up, but we want it as fast as we can possibly get it.

Yeah, if we do not have everything settled by then.

I couldn't agree more with williams on this. Faith put into builders is faith not going into settlers. That doesn't mean you should never faith-purchase a builder, but it does mean that there's a real opportunity cost on the spending. The Ancestral Hall is still a tremendous deal since it grants free builders (aside from incrementing the cost of each future builder upwards by 4 production). With each builder costing roughly 70 production right now, it pays for itself after settling two cities, not even counting the governor promotion that it unlocks. Furthermore, you can't move on to the tier 2 government building (which will be the Grand Master's Chapel: spend faith to purchase units) until you construct the tier 1 government building. So it's a really important building to have, and if Fogger does nothing more than produce Ancestral Hall into Grand Master's Chapel for the rest of the game, it will have done its job beautifully.

Other stuff:

* I see you managed to clear the terrible barbarian camp in the northwest, very nice. Hopefully the two archers can clear the way forward to Atredies for the settler. You don't want Fogger dropping back down to size 1 but it should be able to purchase another settler for Spice Melange in two more turns when it hits size 3.

* The first settler cost 234 faith, for whatever reason slightly less than the 238 faith that we were projecting. This does mean that Russia should be on track to produce the next settler for 280 faith and the following settler for 322 faith. You already have enough faith to get triple faith-purchased settlers just as we were hoping. Once they're out on the field and moving towards their destinations, it might be useful to purchase a missionary next out of Hell March's shrine. Three charges from a missionary would likely be enough to convert Funky, Just Do It, and Act On Instinct. You'll need the religion in these cities to gain Defender of the Faith, plus you won't get the Choral Music benefit from shrines/temples without it either.

* A few turns of Maneuver for double horsemen out of Hell March and Funky feels like a solid choice. You'll have to drop the chase for Hypatia but that's OK, all of the Medieval Great Scientists will be at least somewhat useful and Russia will land one of them eventually. Probably better to avoid spending faith when 300-400 faith is worth 1.5 settlers. The shrine in Hell March will take you up to 25 culture/turn and that will mean a quick trip through Drama and Poetry and Recorded History. After that, I would also grab Theology so that you can construct a temple at the capital for the sweet +4 faith / +4 culture combo. Choral Music is pretty awesome.

I want to delay getting Drama until I can put down 2 commercial districts so that is why I put down a granary in Funky as well.

* On this note: you should *NOT* delay Drama and Poetry! Let's leave aside the fact that Hell March is 9 turns away from growth to size 7 and Funky is probably 15 turns away, far too long to be waiting. I'll post the district discount formula again here:

C = total number of completed districts (regardless of type)
P = placed districts of the specific type in question, both completed and uncompleted
A = available districts to build based on techs/civics discovered

Discount applies if both of these are true:
1) C >= A
2) C/A > P

Right now the constant values are C = 6 (three Lavras, two Campuses, and the Government Plaza) and A = 5 (Lavra, Campus, Encampment, Commercial, Government Plaza). You are totally fine to finish Drama and Poetry which will only take A up to 6 where C = A = 6 and the district discount will still apply to the first Commercial district. The tech you need to avoid right now is Games and Recreation (Entertainment districts) which takes A up to 7 and would rule out the discount. But by the time you're ready to research Games and Recreation, Just Do It will be finished with its Lavra and take C up to 7 as well to keep the discount in play. Long story short: you do not have to avoid Drama and Poetry!

* Did iron appear as a resource anywhere on the map? Or did you swap off of Bronze Working and leave it unfinished? No iron anywhere in all this territory would be pretty unlucky.

But I do have to avoid Games and Recreation which is not avoidable. So no BW yet.

[TheArchduke]

Turn 62

First off all mil tradition finishes.

   

We are going to get 2 builders out of the two eastern cities, and then in 3-4 turns switch out inspiration for maneuver but only when I got Hypatia via faith.

Some maneuvring with archers and the settler starts off, next settler buy next turn.

   

Situation somewhat under control by now. I go for Timbermist first, Atreides second. Spice Melange is more problematic with no escort and I REALLY do not want a barb spring on me all of the sudden down there.

So there is an issue with the districts. Games and Recreation is not avoidable in 9 turns, because of our high culture. The only question is avoiding BW long enough for 2-3 commercial districts worth it?

   

So, builder out of hell march and then Funky, then horseman out of both of them for roaming, protection and escort for further settlers. Then hopefully commercial districts or the odd shrine.

If push comes to shove with that cree scout I can always settle 1E.

   

So how do we win this game? Just by trying to run away with it? Or try to go for more culture?

I think Hypatia is worth having 1 settler less for denial purposes only.

Current plan is Timbermist, Atreides, Act on Instinct, Spice Melange.

Watch me loose this games to ships.

ALSO, I triplechecked, we are building ancestral hall now. If it switches back to Audience Chamber again something is funky.

Speaking of Funky, I could do a quick tile buy on that truffle tile which is breathtaking for a decent 6th tile down the road.

[Sullla]

Double builders is also a solid choice, I thought either going for two builders or two horses were both useful in this situation. Immediate question: where are you planning to use the builder charges? The builder out of the capital can go to Atreides/Timbermist; if you found Timbermist first, I'd improve the rice and truffles for sure, not as certain on the last charge. Maybe even worthwhile to chop a forest (in a spot where it won't affect Earth Goddess tile appeal) for an instant Lavra completion. The builder out of Funky could help out at Act On Instinct or Just Do It, whatever makes the most sense in half a dozen turn's time.

I genuinely do not think it is worthwhile to spend anything above 300 faith on patronizing Hypatia. You said yourself that the person who's running the Great Scientist points on the other continent is way behind and probably making a bad call. My sense is that you only spend faith if you can get Hypatia cheaply (250ish faith cost) and otherwise save the faith for a missionary and the next settler after this initial trio. The next two planned settlers will cost 280 faith (200 natural production) and 322 faith (230 natural production) so the following one after that will cost 364 faith (260 natural production). Russia has a lot of faith that's continuing to skyrocket upwards but it still shouldn't be wasted. Do not delay settling Atreides or Act On Instinct just to patronage Hypatia.

I also don't think that you need to avoid finishing the research of Bronze Working tech. That picture of the civics research was helpful (and wow, Russia's culture is outstanding for this stage of the game) but you still have a fair bit of time before needing to research Games and Recreation. Drama and Poetry takes 1 turn, Recorded History is 4 turns, Theology is 3 turns, and then Games and Recreation is another 4 turns after that. So that's 12 full turns before you're forced to research the civic, and Just Do It will definitely have its Lavra done by then to keep the district discount in play. Anyway, my point is only that I think you'll be OK to research Bronze Working if you want (along with Drama and Poetry). You can also keep dodging it to be safe and that's fine too.

The picture of the current policy cards had me thinking about some of the longer term stuff coming down the pipeline. There are four upcoming civics which will all be excellent:

Recorded History: unlocks Natural Philosophy (double Campus district adjacency bonuses), worth +8 beakers/turn right now
Theology: unlocks temples which will be worth 4 faith / 4 culture per turn with Choral Music. Also unlocks Scripture for double Holy Site adjacency bonuses, probably not worth running with Earth Goddess but still an option
Feudalism: two excellent policy cards in Serfdom (+2 builder charges) and Feudal Contract (+50% production on melee/ranged units) which will both see a lot of use
Civil Service: unlocks Meritocracy (+1 culture per completed district) which will be even better than usual thanks to spamming cheap Lavra everywhere

Russia is keeping pace with Rome on culture while also outputting massive faith each turn. I like where this is heading. Double forget to double faith-purchase the settlers on this upcoming turn.

So how do we win this game? Just by trying to run away with it? Or try to go for more culture?

Probably the same method as every other game: get a lead in tech/culture, build military, run over someone else, wait for the other players to concede. So far, so good in this regard. You should be up to 7 cities by Turn 70 with this round of triple faith-produced settlers and ideally can keep expanding and developing. The ideal longterm strategy would be to hit someone with cossacks who's fallen behind in tech. We've seen that playbook before, and if the defender doesn't have Industrial era units to counter, it's basically an instant defeat.

Last thought for today: Cornflakes just spent 300 gold and I'll wager that was for legion upgrades. I hope Kaiser is ready to defend since he would certainly be my target. You have a warrior down in that area exploring, find anything interesting there?

[williams482]

Civil Service: unlocks Meritocracy (+1 culture per completed district) which will be even better than usual thanks to spamming cheap Lavra everywhere

Meritocracy was removed as a policy in R&F. The bonus now exists as part of the Pen Brush, and Voice golden age dedication.

Feeling very lucky that we have two civs and some kind of inland sea between us and Rome. Cornflakes would have a very hard time reaching us, and an equally hard time keeping anything he captured if he did, but it'd still feel a lot better with more visibility on the center of our continent. Something else for the horsemen to help with, I suppose.

[TheArchduke]

Double builders is also a solid choice, I thought either going for two builders or two horses were both useful in this situation. Immediate question: where are you planning to use the builder charges? The builder out of the capital can go to Atreides/Timbermist; if you found Timbermist first, I'd improve the rice and truffles for sure, not as certain on the last charge. Maybe even worthwhile to chop a forest (in a spot where it won't affect Earth Goddess tile appeal) for an instant Lavra completion. The builder out of Funky could help out at Act On Instinct or Just Do It, whatever makes the most sense in half a dozen turn's time.

I genuinely do not think it is worthwhile to spend anything above 300 faith on patronizing Hypatia. You said yourself that the person who's running the Great Scientist points on the other continent is way behind and probably making a bad call. My sense is that you only spend faith if you can get Hypatia cheaply (250ish faith cost) and otherwise save the faith for a missionary and the next settler after this initial trio. The next two planned settlers will cost 280 faith (200 natural production) and 322 faith (230 natural production) so the following one after that will cost 364 faith (260 natural production). Russia has a lot of faith that's continuing to skyrocket upwards but it still shouldn't be wasted. Do not delay settling Atreides or Act On Instinct just to patronage Hypatia.

I also don't think that you need to avoid finishing the research of Bronze Working tech. That picture of the civics research was helpful (and wow, Russia's culture is outstanding for this stage of the game) but you still have a fair bit of time before needing to research Games and Recreation. Drama and Poetry takes 1 turn, Recorded History is 4 turns, Theology is 3 turns, and then Games and Recreation is another 4 turns after that. So that's 12 full turns before you're forced to research the civic, and Just Do It will definitely have its Lavra done by then to keep the district discount in play. Anyway, my point is only that I think you'll be OK to research Bronze Working if you want (along with Drama and Poetry). You can also keep dodging it to be safe and that's fine too.

The picture of the current policy cards had me thinking about some of the longer term stuff coming down the pipeline. There are four upcoming civics which will all be excellent:

Recorded History: unlocks Natural Philosophy (double Campus district adjacency bonuses), worth +8 beakers/turn right now
Theology: unlocks temples which will be worth 4 faith / 4 culture per turn with Choral Music. Also unlocks Scripture for double Holy Site adjacency bonuses, probably not worth running with Earth Goddess but still an option
Feudalism: two excellent policy cards in Serfdom (+2 builder charges) and Feudal Contract (+50% production on melee/ranged units) which will both see a lot of use
Civil Service: unlocks Meritocracy (+1 culture per completed district) which will be even better than usual thanks to spamming cheap Lavra everywhere

Russia is keeping pace with Rome on culture while also outputting massive faith each turn. I like where this is heading. Double forget to double faith-purchase the settlers on this upcoming turn.

So how do we win this game? Just by trying to run away with it? Or try to go for more culture?

Probably the same method as every other game: get a lead in tech/culture, build military, run over someone else, wait for the other players to concede. So far, so good in this regard. You should be up to 7 cities by Turn 70 with this round of triple faith-produced settlers and ideally can keep expanding and developing. The ideal longterm strategy would be to hit someone with cossacks who's fallen behind in tech. We've seen that playbook before, and if the defender doesn't have Industrial era units to counter, it's basically an instant defeat.

Last thought for today: Cornflakes just spent 300 gold and I'll wager that was for legion upgrades. I hope Kaiser is ready to defend since he would certainly be my target. You have a warrior down in that area exploring, find anything interesting there?

We can patronize Hypatia in 2 turns for about 200 gold. I doubt anyone else can and will invest gold and faith into it. For us it is 3-4 turns worth of faith production. For someone else it is a vital gold upgrade.

The case for Hypatia is augmented as Alhamram must be the guy with 5 GS points and he is a huge danger to us. Both suboptimal and pindicator´s scores are in the toilet whilst Alhamram looks competitve. It looks like I am stuck with a competitive Cree and Roman empire whilst Alhambram seems poised to take over his 2 neighbours midterm. This does not bode well.

I urgently need a military plan to conquer the Cree.

Recorded History is too strong this early, we are sure to take it next.

Civil Service: unlocks Meritocracy (+1 culture per completed district) which will be even better than usual thanks to spamming cheap Lavra everywhere

Meritocracy was removed as a policy in R&F. The bonus now exists as part of the Pen Brush, and Voice golden age dedication.

Feeling very lucky that we have two civs and some kind of inland sea between us and Rome. Cornflakes would have a very hard time reaching us, and an equally hard time keeping anything he captured if he did, but it'd still feel a lot better with more visibility on the center of our continent. Something else for the horsemen to help with, I suppose.

Yeah, I am using the OB to get a feel for Cornflakes land, just as he is doing with mine. I am confident this will come to Cornflakes vs me here.

[TheArchduke]

Turn 63

I only buy one settler in the west as to keep my faith for Hypatia and to not get the scout of the Cree in the way.

   

The barb horseman is under control. My main worry by now is Alhambram with his 5 GS points (likely 2 from inspiration). He is first in science as well.

   

I identified site B for Act on Instinct if push comes to shove and took steps to reserve it. As announced I am delaying the settler and I am sure you two guys will give me flak over it.

   

As I am first in the turn order I have 2 turns, or do I have only 1 turn to get Hypatia? Damn that close timing.

[Sullla]

Good discussion taking place here in the thread, let's start with the Hypatia issue first. Here's the Great Person patronage formula again:

The cost of rushing a great people with gold or faith is:
For faith : 150+ 10*GP point remaining
For gold : 200+ 15*GP point remaining.

It looks like Russia will be sitting at 51.3/60 Great Scientist points next turn while the mystery civ (Alhambram?) will be at 54/60. I'll get one thing out of the way first: if you're going to spend faith to pick up Hypatia, I think it has to be next turn. I wouldn't count on the competitor civ sitting there at 59/60, way too big of a chance that they will finish a Campus or a library somewhere and grab that one extra point needed for recruitment. So if you're going to do this, then next turn is the time. The faith cost when needing 9 more Great Person points is 240 faith, an investment of about 5.5 turns at present. Is that worthwhile? It's pretty close in my estimation. I'll do a list of pros and cons:

Pros

+ Definitely helps science. The free library is 2 beakers/turn in Funky and then another 2 beakers/turn from the libraries in Hell March and Funky. Plus every library forever will be worth another beaker and you'll likely have at least half a dozen libraries before the game is over. All of this is very nice.

+ Frees up Funky to build things that are not libraries: this is somewhat easy to miss but Funky doesn't have to spend 6 turns or whatever constructing its library. That time could be spent producing a shrine instead, or a builder, or military, or whatever. This also speeds up the overall growth curve.

+ Denial value: someone else is investing a lot into this Great Person, and if the Classical era Great Scientist is the faith one, they'll have gotten nothing out of the whole thing.

+ Sunken costs: Russia spent about 5 turns already running the otherwise-crummy Inspiration policy card, it would feel bad not to land an important Great Scientist as the payoff.

Cons

- Slows the next settler: the next one should cost 322 faith by my math or something very close to it. That settler could have been purchased this turn and begin moving to the Act On Instinct site next turn. Spending faith on the Great Person costs 240 faith and slows down the next settler... although I ran the math and it's not as bad as I thought, you have enough faith by Turn 67 if I'm counting correctly. That's only 4 more turns. Hmmm, this isn't as bad as I thought.

- Slows the first missionary: Russia does need a missionary at some point to spread faith to the newer cities and make conversions. This delays that project as well.

- Delays every future settler by 4-5 turns: it's not just the first settler, it's the opportunity cost of every city popping out at a slower point in time for the rest of the game. This is the biggest cost and it's hard to quantify how much it might hurt in the long run. I don't have an easy way to assess this.

Overall, I think the whole thing is close enough that one can make a solid case for either side. It sounds like you want to patronage Hypatia and that's not a bad decision at all, so you can make the call next turn. Elsewhere:

* Looks like you have the barb horseman under control now, nice. How are you going to escort the two current settlers safely to Atreides and Timbermist, just out of curiosity?

* Whoa, Cornflakes is *LAST* in military power?! I wonder what he spent his gold on then. Maybe he's not planning to rush Greece after all. Your whole continent seems to be pretty low on military power. Also, there's no chance that you're conquering the Cree any time in the next 50 turns, best not to waste time thinking about that. TBS is way too good at this game, he's currently leading Russia in both science and culture. Impressive how he managed to do that on limited city count. Let's reassess in 15-20 turns after you've gotten out a wave of faith-purchased settlers.

* Definitely time to start thinking about where you plan to use the charges on the builders under production now, and what to have Hell March work on next. Honestly, another builder might be the best option given that you're in Ilkum for the moment and can't start a Commercial district or temple next at the capital.

* I honestly think TBS is just healing in an unlucky spot with his warrior in the east. If he does stay there forever, the spot a tile east wouldn't be bad for Act On Instict. (Small note: keep track of when your Friendship runs out with the Cree. You don't want TBS hitting an unprotected settler/builder on the turn it expires.)