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This is probably the only time I'd faith patronage a great person - Hypatia is worth it, since she'll boost my libraries for the rest of the game. It would be wise to save some faith for faith buying, but I'd like to use that for emergencies only - you can't use cards to boost libraries or monuments, but you CAN boost units with them, so it's more efficient if possible to use my faith on those things.
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April 15th, 2018, 09:23
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Turn 61
Welcome to the classical age, everyone!
Entering the next age slashed the cost of Political Philosophy, saving us 2 turns of research and hopefully providing a bit of overflow. It's an interesting rubber band mechanic - I won't be able to race too far ahead in science, since future techs will cost more for me than for any slower neighbors I might have. At the same time, my weaker culture than Alhambram's isn't too much of a penalty yet - I grabbed my government only one turn later than him (I forgot to mention - Alhambram entered classical republic last turn or possibly the turn before) despite his culture rate beating mine by fully 7 points now. Not sure how I feel about this.
There's a lot of housekeeping this turn, but no new plans evolving yet. First, governments:
I take Oligarchy. Card-wise, it's identical to classical republic, only a bit more flexible - you can run 2 military cards instead of only 1, at the cost of not being able to run 3 economic policies. The bonus to combat strength will help me take Antioch, and hopefully induce Alhambram to take a DoF lest I attack him. I don't have enough of a strength advantage to do that - he's got about 20 points, or one warrior, on me - but he can't know what I'm chopping up. I debated taking Classical Republic for the housing boost, but it would only affect JRTI at the moment, and I have no need for the amenities. I can swap into that later, after I build the Audience Chamber, and when more of my cities need housing.
Policies: Agoge is needed to chop the entertainment district and the Colosseum, when the time comes. Colonization likewise a necessity, because OCISLY is still planning to chop 2 settlers for the southern front. Charismatic Leader I selected because there's only one city-state whose envoys I care about: Valetta. Everything else is "nice to have" but ultimately a distraction from the real goal. It's hard to keep control of more than one city-state in a multiplayer game, since everyone is killing city-states and gradually winnowing down the number that can be targeted for envoys, so I'm going to focus Valetta early and build up a lead here.
The boost to influence generation means we're only 8 turns away from suzeraining the city. If the next Great Scientist is NOT Hypatia, then I can think about a granary in OCISLY or some monuments. Like I said earlier, I think it's worthwhile to buy monuments with faith, even with the Colosseum, because I'll want them eventually anyway, and slow-building them is a waste when I could be using that production to build boosted units (or districts, which are impossible to boost regardless). Faith-buying units is good to have when you need an army quick, but hopefully I won't find myself in that situation - or I do it in one turn right before launching a surprise attack on Japper or Alhambram. Finally, I take Urban Planning. Ilkum might have been the better choice, but it would only boost JRTI as it turns builder pump in 3 turns - at which time I'll have 4 other cities that could also use some extra production.
Here's the new tech tree. Research times came down a little bit, I think maybe 3 turn's worth? Could flip back and check, but I'm too lazy. I post in this thread too damn much, hard to find posts when I need 'em. Anyway, the Horsemanship boost is due next turn, so slash 3 turns from that tech. Thus, Construction is due in 15 turns (unless I buy a water mill in 8 turns with Valetta!  ). I'm setting that as my ETA for Games and Rech - T76. This number will probably come down 2 turns or so as science improves from city settlements.
Civics tree:
12 turns for Games & Rec without the boost, but I'll only invest 7 turns and then spend the extra culture someplace else. I don't want to finish Drama and Poetry just yet, don't want another district mucking things up, but I can at least grab Military Tradition (1 turn) and finish MOST of Drama and Poetry (6 turns). That's 14 turns from now, so hopefully by that point I finish Games & Rec and can move on to Defensive Tactics for Limes. THEN we finish Drama and Poetry, THEN Theology (enhance religion), then Recorded History, which should be boosted. I could recruit Liang and 3 other governors - so Pingala, Amani, and Victor/Reyna? - and have 5 of my 8 cities with governors.
Enough government and research nonsense. Let's look at the actual turn.
I take aetryn's advice and take Free Inquiry:
An era point every time I buy a library, and an era point for every eureka, sounds nice. Might even be worth a water mill, eh? I need 23 points to reach a Golden Age, and since I have explored so little there's a lot of points still out there on the map - I'll get 2 for meeting Archduke, for example, there's 3 for finding the remaining natural wonders, there's 2 for suzeraining Valetta, 2 more if I grab Nan Madol as well, 3 for the Colosseum...We have a good shot at a Golden Medieval Age. That'll be my target date for swiping Chocoladem from Alhambram.
Question to research about that: Do bread and circus projects stack? Is it worth building an entertainment district in Another Fine Product just to try and flip one city? Probably not. Worth looking into.
I upgrade my third slinger:
There's one era point - we've already earned 4! Go us! 22 to go! (magic number is 45). One slinger left to upgrade. It'll take my warrior 13 turns to reach Antioch, so the target date is T75 for the city attack and OH HELL I just realized that I made the upgrade BEFORE I made the dedication!  Chevalier, you dummy! Well, we have some spare points. Hope that one isn't the clincher, that'd be a bummer.
In any case. Rowain took the DoF, so no worries on this settler getting sniped. In One Ear is ready to go next turn:
This is a definite candidate for a monument buy early - all its best tiles are a little ways away. Settling next to the hills would make the seowon weaker, so next to the bananas it is. Land Surveyors is a necessity down the road for this city, but I need to rebuild my gold reserves after my archer upgrade. I also need to find more sources of gold, money is starting to grow tight again.
We meet the city-state in the southwest, Yerevan. Their quest is to trigger Celestial Navigation's eureka, so it'd be worth my while to fishing boat the crabs near Another Fine Product when I have a spare builder. Valetta's quest is to recruit a great merchant.  That sucks. That will be hard, but I guess I need Commercial Hubs/Markets anyway to improve gold generation. Those will be priority #2 after seowons in my cities without other obligations (ie, not OCISLY and JRTI, but OCISLY can get one at size 7).
Finally, I spotted a single freshwater spot that I missed earlier, way in the uttermost west:
Look how dry everything on the far side of the mountains is. :/
Thanks for tuning in so far, and I'll see everyone possibly later today!
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Did you mean Japper took the DoF, or do we have contact with Rowain now? Also, I think you should be able to see what kind of age everyone else you have contact with is in - I assume normal for everyone, but would be good to know if someone is in a golden age and might be running one of the dedications.
Hoping the rest of the settlement wave will go to plan with no more interference from either neighbor.
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Turn 62
Ah, see, I knew we'd get two turns today. If the Europeans are up late, we might even get three!
We start the turn off as I move my spare builder and improve the cattle. It drops Horseback Riding from 4 turns to 2, speeding us up a little bit on the road to Construction, which starts next.
It also gives Of Course I Still Love You another good tile to work, 3/1, not bad. Both my mature cities are growing faster than my ability to improve tiles for them to work. The trader also finishes his first run, and I relocate him to I Blame the Parents. I debated waiting to send this trader to Japper's city, or to one of Alhambram's for the combat boost, but I'm not planning on war with either in the immediate future. My first Market will send a trade route to Japper, more so if the Mongols invade I have a trading post in his cities for visibility, and the second will go to Alhambram, who will gain a level of visibility on me when I take Antioch. Instead, I Blame the Parents is in desperate need of food - 15 turns is much too long to wait for size 2! I will send it to the capital next turn.
Japper pre-empts me, offering a renewed Declaration of Friendship. With the Mongols on his other flank, this was an easy call for him. And it's an easy call for me to accept it. I don't aim to stay at peace with Japper all game, but for the next 30 turns I have a few projects: The Colosseum, the two southern settlers, and seowons in most of my cities. That accomplished, the timing might be right for a knight push. If Archduke isn't fighting in Cree territory, I might try and strike Japper then. In the meantime, this frees up my border from garrison units, letting me concentrate everything on Antioch. I'll take a renewed DoF with Alhambram if he offers, but I don't think I shall offer one - no real need, I don't think he'll attack into the teeth of my military and Defender of the Faith. The nice thing is I won't need as many missionaries as I thought for defense:
Religious pressure on the young cities is enough to flip them very quickly. Ten turns for IBtP, probably the same for IOE and AFP once they're founded.
- Oh, yeah, I founded IOE but didn't take a picture. Founding city #4 is old news -
- heck, even Alhambram's close plant is already under considerable pressure:
I don't think he can found a religion in 17 turns, he doesn't have a holy site up yet. If I can spread this around to foreign lands, it'll facilitate conquest immensely - witness pindicator's use of America + DotF + Bombards + Observation balloons to steamroll an army roughly equal to his in raw strength in PBEM4. I don't have America's bonus, but I will have strong science. Anyway, Of Course I Still Love You will need a missionary, but the new plants might convert naturally, letting me save my faith for other uses. Excellent news! 
Antioch's military, and a possible future city site:
Control of Antioch will shut down most of Alhambram's attempts to expand this direction. Fresh water is a godsend. Planning ahead, if no one grabs the Pyramids by the time I capture Antioch and get a builder down here, I think I will attempt to chop them using those deer. This is embyronic chicken-counting, of course. The city's military isn't too impressive yet. I'll move my own warrior away so it doesn't get paranoid - I notice city states start to kick out a lot more military if your own is hanging around.
Score and overview. Archduke is up 1 district on me, but next turn I will have the most cities on the map for the first time all game:
I think I'm entering the most dangerous phase yet, though. My score is continuing to surge, which, coupled with all these cities, must paint me as a target to Alhambram. Japper and Rowain might also get nervous. The main saving grace is the presence of the Archduke. My neighbors might think, "Okay, better to make myself safe from the Mongols now, and then worry about Korea. Korea will be a problem down the road, but if I don't survive the Mongols nowI won't be alive to do anything about Korea later." Here's hoping eyes stay on him instead of me - a long shot, I know, but a man can dream.
@aetryn:
Rowain took the DoF. Japper offered on this turn. And Alhambram might offer next turn. It's not ideal to have all three stacked like that, I admit, but I see no way around it unless I outright reject Alhambram. If he doesn't offer, I'm going to wait until about turn 75 or so before I offer my own - that will free me up to concentrate on Japper for ten turns or so before I need to think about him on my southern flank.
Good call on reporting everyone's ages, I should have thought to share that already. You can't see anyone's dedications, as far as I can tell - might need to poke around more - but Rowain, Archduke, and Alhambram are all in golden ages. Japper and I are in a normal age.
April 15th, 2018, 17:37
(This post was last modified: April 15th, 2018, 17:40 by aetryn.)
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(April 15th, 2018, 15:22)Chevalier Mal Fet Wrote: Turn 62
@aetryn:
Rowain took the DoF. Japper offered on this turn. And Alhambram might offer next turn. It's not ideal to have all three stacked like that, I admit, but I see no way around it unless I outright reject Alhambram. If he doesn't offer, I'm going to wait until about turn 75 or so before I offer my own - that will free me up to concentrate on Japper for ten turns or so before I need to think about him on my southern flank.
Good call on reporting everyone's ages, I should have thought to share that already. You can't see anyone's dedications, as far as I can tell - might need to poke around more - but Rowain, Archduke, and Alhambram are all in golden ages. Japper and I are in a normal age.
Not sure I like Archduke in a Golden Age at this point, but that's probably my reflexive memories of earlier civs. I don't think a Classical Golden Age really helps with a military push.
We can't see their dedications, but for the people we have contact with we may be able to tell. - If they took Exodus of the Evangelists, they should be generating 4 extra Great Prophet Points over when the age rolled.
- If they took Pen, Brush, and Voice, their culture per turn should have gone up some based on how many districts they already have
- If they took Free Inquiry, we probably can't tell yet because it's unlikely anyone has any Commercial Districts down. However, if you see a spike in Gold per turn and Science per turn (and especially if you can spot the new Commercial District), you'll know that player has Free Inquiry running.
- Lastly, Monumentality has no effect on yields. It might even be hard to spot settler builds with this because you probably buy them where Magnus is to avoid the settler loss. However, if we see a lot of settlements going down in a relatively short span of time and/or see lots of improved territory, we can peg the player for this dedication.
Free Inquiry seems unlikely unless someone has an aggressive plan for Commercial Hub building in the near future. It's hard to guess what Archduke might have taken - if it had been later and Emperor's lands had lots of Holy Sites, then Monumentality would be logical, but I can't imagine his faith generation is good enough to warrant it. Someone should be interested enough in a relgion to grab Exodus - there are still some decent beliefs out there. Beyond that, it seems like a pretty marginal choice unless someone has tons of faith banked for Monumentality.
Edit: Your last score report (right when the age rolled) showed Rowain generating 10 Great Prophet Points per turn. Unless he's built 5 holy sites, that's probably a Exodus of the Evangelists boost, right?
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You mean he has ten GP points. The number on the left is total, the number on the right is the rate. I'd guess Rowain would take monumentality to use his faith income, but I can't be sure. Let me load the save and check research rates again.
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(April 15th, 2018, 18:48)Chevalier Mal Fet Wrote: You mean he has ten GP points. The number on the left is total, the number on the right is the rate. I'd guess Rowain would take monumentality to use his faith income, but I can't be sure. Let me load the save and check research rates again.
My mistake. Apparently I'm terrible at reading Score Reports 
April 15th, 2018, 20:02
(This post was last modified: April 16th, 2018, 06:21 by Chevalier Mal Fet.)
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Because aetryn is needy here's a
Score report:
No, though, these are actually useful. I stopped doing them in PBEM7 because they were too much work and they made me too sad. But you do get a lot of good info from closely tracking the score.
Notes:
1)Japper founded city #3. I don't think it can have been with the settler I chased off...well, maybe it could, just to the north there. Ah, well, doesn't matter, I'm basically already at 5, more even than Archduke who stole two of his. We'll be at 8 by turn 80, hopefully.
2)No one's research rates jumped a whole lot, at least not yet. Nor did anyone's empire score increase, indicating a district build. However...
3)Archduke and Alhambram's Great Person points have both surged. Archduke is now generating 4 great general points from his Encampment, while Alhambram is getting nearly 7 points a turn from his 2 campuses (we can see Chocoladem, we know there's no campus there). This scrambles the timeline on the Great Scientist a bit, and it's a clarion call that Archduke is not satisfied with having eaten one neighbor...as if there was ever any doubt about that. It looks like Rowain, at least, is alert, his military score goes up every turn. Enough to resist Mongolian horsemen backed by a GG? Remember, Archduke is getting +8 automatically once he has his GG in place. If he also manages to send a trade route to Sumeria, that's +14 cavalry. He'd be fighting on equal terms with me invading Korea! (something to keep in mind for the future). And Japper...Japper's military score is stagnant. :/
Chariots, I think Japper and I can handle. I'll keep an eye on the diplomatic situation. Horsemen - how do we answer those? Those bastards hit at strength 49. Promoted spearmen MIGHT get close at strength 45, but they need to be promoted! Honestly, this is very concerning. City walls will get torn to shreds. Archers will barely scratch the horsemen. Swords will get ripped apart in the open field. :/ What do you do when the Mongols come calling?
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(April 15th, 2018, 20:02)Chevalier Mal Fet Wrote: Because aetryn is needy here's a
Score report:
No, though, these are actually useful. I stopped doing them in PBEM7 because they were too much work and they made me too sad. But you do get a lot of good info from closely tracking the score.
Notes:
1)Japper founded city #3. I don't think it can have been with the settler I chased off...well, maybe it could, just to the north there. Ah, well, doesn't matter, I'm basically already at 5, more even than Archduke who stole two of his. We'll be at 8 by turn 80, hopefully.
2)No one's research rates jumped a whole lot, at least not yet. Nor did anyone's empire score increase, indicating a district build. However...
3)Archduke and Alhambram's Great Person points have both surged. Archduke is now generating 4 great general points from his Encampment, while Alhambram is getting nearly 7 points a turn from his 2 campuses (we can see Chocoladem, we know there's no campus there). This scrambles the timeline on the Great Scientist a bit, and it's a clarion call that Archduke is not satisfied with having eaten one neighbor...as if there was ever any doubt about that. It looks like Rowain, at least, is alert, his military score goes up every turn. Enough to resist Mongolian horsemen backed by a GG? Remember, Archduke is getting +8 automatically once he has his GG in place. If he also manages to send a trade route to Sumeria, that's +14 cavalry. He'd be fighting on equal terms with me invading Korea! (something to keep in mind for the future). And Japper...Japper's military score is stagnant. :/
Chariots, I think Japper and I can handle. I'll keep an eye on the diplomatic situation. Horsemen - how do we answer those? Those bastards hit at strength 49. Promoted spearmen MIGHT get close at strength 45, but they need to be promoted! Honestly, this is very concerning. City walls will get torn to shreds. Archers will barely scratch the horsemen. Swords will get ripped apart in the open field. :/ What do you do when the Mongols come calling?
Okay, so definitely nobody in Exodus, and nobody in Pen, Brush and Voice (unless they haven't had their turns yet to make their dedications). Probably both in Monumentality I guess, since that's the most transformative (and probably attractive).
If you are aiming for a Medieval Golden Age and, uh, non-military concerns amount to anything at that point in the game, it might be a good idea to aim for the Free Inquiry bonus. You probably want Commercial Hubs anyway to build your economy, they're usually not hard to boost if you have rivers around, and it would stack on top of your Seowon yield that comes on line then.
If military concerns are all that end up mattering, how possible is it to get to Pikemen soonish? After Construction, that would be Currency->Math->Military Science, right? Math is likely to be boosted, and Currency seems like a logical next target anyway. I don't know, it's probably too late. Shame, since it seems like a lot of the expansion features aren't going to be shown off if the game doesn't run long enough for Alliances or new Espionage options to kick in.
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