Gavagai, I'm not sure if you still check this thread, but are you still available? Or have you become too busy to continue the mentor role?
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[SPOILERS] Will the Sun(rise) Ever Set on Washington, Mongolia?
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So...
I guess we should start with, what's our leader and civ?  This is RB mod, right?Can you post some updated pictures of your cities (city view and overview of the land)? Do we have slavery yet? What's the general plan for next cities and what to do with each city? Where to settle, what to build and when to whip, basically. I see you have some pretty detailed micro, but is difficult to try and dive in so much information without some basics.
December 16th, 2014, 11:08
(This post was last modified: December 16th, 2014, 11:09 by Whosit.)
I'll get a few updated pictures later today, but we are:
Washington (EXP/CHA) of the Mongols. RB Mod, yes. I think the version # is in the tech thread. The idea was to combine the Ger with CHA to get highly promoted mounted units at some point and romp over a neighbor, though I consider both traits to be pretty good on their own. You can probably get a decent idea of the lay of the land from the images currently up, but I realize I haven't updated with any images of our newest city (#3, Soos). Settler is almost finished to head to City 4 site. We have been in slavery for some time, though I've opted to skip the granary in the capital in favor of just pushing out more workers and settlers, so not many whips there. 2nd City, Wendy, has good food bonus and happy cap, so that will be whipped fairly frequently, cooling down on workers or settlers (as reflected in my oh-so-easy-to-comprehend microplan). I rarely have a good sense of what to prioritize for techs, but I'm basically planning Writing > Maths > Currency (dipping back at a couple points for Fishing and maybe anything else I need). While there's some drawbacks, I've basically decided to manage border pops with libraries. Most cities should be settled in such a way that they can function well with 1st ring tiles only. That's the idea, anyway. Not making a run for any wonders right now. Just more cities, trying for an early Currency to fund even more cities. I'm heading north with settling. South has a few places to settle, but they're all pretty weak. Northwest has recently been revealed to have some tantalizing locations, but HRE will probably get there first unless I make some priority changes. There's a bottleneck spot to the far northeast that I'm hoping and praying to settle, but in all likelihood, the Koreans will get there first (though I'm tempted to fortify an axe/spear pair there first chance to dissuade any poorly escorted settlers. That's the sum of it, I guess. I'll be playing the turn.... hopefully soon, but I have to run out for errands shortly and might not get images up for a few hours. Here's my most recent two images, though:   Edit: Normal speed (like most pitbosses) and Monarch. I also have a sandbox that's got correct settings if you ever want to take a look. It's mostly up-to-date.
Well, some initial thoughts.
Even without a more detailed look at the situation, two ideas that I don't like: 1. No granary in the Capital. 2. Popping borders with libraries. Let's talk a bit about 1. Granaries are the most important building in the game, so they have to go everywhere, as soon as possible (unless you have a very good reason not to). From what I can gather, you think you don't need a granary in the Capital because you'll be stuck on the same size for a long time, building settlers, instead of whipping. That's fair, since there's a merit for not whipping your Capital after the initial wave of expansion (especially in a lovely Capital like yours), but that doesn't mean the Capital doesn't need a granary. Let's see, your Capital is at size 4, while your happy cap is 8. Ideally, if you are slowbuilding food units, you should be at your happy cap. Before stopping the growth of a city, you need to make it so that you got all the value you could get by growing it (usually, that's reaching the happy cap, especially so early in the game; but it could also be that you don't have any good tile to grow into). So, that screenshot of your Capital would be beautiful if there was 4 more pop working grassland cottages there. But growing to size 8 is a big investment of food and time - that's why you need a granary, since it'll make you get the same (a size 8 city), by investing less. So, a decent goal for your simulations is: how to make my Capital grow to its happy cap as fast as possible? How to have cottages ready for it to work when we start growing? How fast can I finish a granary there, so as many city growths get the granary bonus? Another thing is, how to get the granaries as fast as possible: granaries are not meant to be slow built, unless in the most dire of cases. You have to think of ways to chop them or whip them, most of the time. You have to think that every time you grow a pop point without a granary, you are losing something, so you want it as fast as possible. That doesn't mean that growing your city isn't the best way to actually get the granary, there's a chance it is (working high food tiles is better than stagnating your city at size 1 working a plains hill forest). But it's a good mindset to have, while you are simming. Do you know how granaries work and why you are supposed to finish them when the food box is half full? Do you know the city stagnation trick for granaries? --- Libraries for border pops are a trap. It seems like an investment, because you are not wasting the hammers on a shitty monument, but that's not how things work. Why? Because you don't want libraries on your cities so early: libraries are expansive and not a good investment overall, this early. You want those 90h for workers and settlers - or better, you want the 60h that you save by building a monument instead of a library for workers and settlers -> at the end of the day, the question is, does 25% science and 2 scientist slots in this city worth 60h/a worker? Because you are spending a worker every time you build a library rather than a monument (it's a bit different, because workers are built with food and hammers, so usually you'll waste even more time with the library than the worker). In the majority of cases, the answer is no, because most early cities won't have a lot of commerce (and, early in the game, expansion beats commerce) and you'll be wasting the scientist slots (unless you plan specifically for a early academy or something) Building monuments suck, that's why you see most good players try for religion and Stonehenge, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and do it. You can compensate by proper planning on your city placement, but even so... Let's take your third city as an example. It's a good plan to settle in a way that you'll get that sheep tile through your Capital border expansion, like you did. But that's good because you'll have a good food tile to work while you get the monument to get the wheat inside your borders, not because it can allow you to skip a monument. That wheat tile is a phenomenal one, you can't delay it so much (perhaps if the wheat/clam city is your 4th one, you can skip the monument, that's a case by case analysis, but I'm trying to show a general point here) - yes, it'll be in your borders eventually, even without a monument, but you have to conseider all the value that was lost by not working that 5 food tile. If you settle the wheat/clam city with the wheat already improved (because your 3rd city popped its borders), that city will have a way faster start, working a 5 food tile from the start. --- I hope I'm not sounding harsh, but those things are really big. When you settle a new city, usually you have to plan some things, like, "Do I have an improved food tile to work from the start or one that can be improved soon?". And two things that you also need to plan is, "how do I get a granary here as fast as possible?" and "do I need/how do I pop borders here?". Delaying any of this things need to have a big reason, otherwise it's just not worth it. The master players of Civ 4 are the ones that dominate the case by case analysis of such things, rather than the ones that play by such rules of thumb. But I'm not a master player, so I can just help with those rules. --- Can you share a link to the sandbox?
Update for Turn 52:
 Not sure if the HRE only just revolted, or only just got BW. I should check my foreign adviser screen to make sure everyone else is already in slavery.  Barb city. Wendy is due to whip an Axe out next turn. It was going to head north to defend our 4th city, but we already have a spearman going there, and that should suffice for early barb defense. I don't expect the Koreans to launch a strike out there any time soon. I'd rather see this barb city burned than give the HRE a chance for a free city.  Core.  Object of my expansion. City 4 is actually the hill spot for sheep/pigs. That's so city 5 (gold spot) can share the pig without a border pop. After that, I'm hoping to somehow get that clam/fish spot to the east of there. Unlikely, of course. I'd settle for the pig/fish site if I have to. Still a decent border location, but if I can get the clam/fish spot by settling or taking it from Korea, I'd like that.     JUST got Korean's charts, working on HRE now.    
Skimmed your points, Ichabod, don't have time to digest or respond though. I'll have to get you a link to the sandbox a little later.
Quickly, though, capital growth delayed because I freaked out at how fast other players were expanding and didn't think the time invested in a granary right now was worth a big delay in getting cities down. However, Granary was next planned build after workers and settlers, for what that's worth.
Some suggestion, seeing the pictures:
1. Change the barracks for a monument in Soos. That's it, if you settle the 4th city near the pigs and sheep. I'd consider settling the 4th city as the wheat clam spot, in that case, you could go for a military unit on Soos. It's still too soon for barracks, they are not worthy investments right now. By the way, consider farming the floodplain in Soos, not cottaging. Soos seems to be a hammer city (and a very good one at that), not a commerce one; but it has a low food surplus, considering the wheat/clams city will have to work the wheat for a long time, so farming is probably best. 2. The planned 4th city is too far from your core, which means you'll have to overextend to improve it. Why not settling closer, like the wheat spot mentioned above or a city 1NW of the gold, that gets pigs first ring? I don't think Korea will settle that long into your direction, and it won't be difficult to punish it if they do. 3. I'd suggest a worker in Wendy (1-pop whip it, perhaps), because you probably need more if you are working an unimproved tile there. I think the other option is a monument, because you really want that crab tile. That being said, you want to tech fishing, if you haven't done it yet. I don't think getting an axe to deny that barb city is a good investment; early in the game you want to boost yourself, not hinder your enemies, because that way you'll be hindering yourself while others just profit. You can get this axe from Soos, if you skip the barracks there. I don't like barging here and asking you to change your plans like that, feel free to disregard whatever I say and just do as you please (it's your game, in the end). But if you want a better rationale for this suggested moves, ask away. If I can't convince you by arguments, you're better just following your own plans, rather than blindingly following mine.
1. I don't have mysticism teched yet.
 I can certainly change the placement of city 4 to the clam/wheat spot, though, and make the changes in Soos's production. The Floodplain was always going to be farmed, though. I don't think I said I was cottaging it.2. Yeah... that's reasonable. I think Gavagai wanted me to settle the gold spot as a 4th, but it wouldn't really have food, so I decided to just hop-scotch it instead. At least, that's what I remember the decision-making process to be. 3. I was going to 1-pop the Axe in Wendy and then make a worker until the anger cooled off, and then make... whatever else was in my plan. 4. Probably my bad, but those pictures are all from last turn, so Soos has a turn put into the barracks, and Wendy a turn into the axe. I don't think the turn into the barracks is a big deal, but with Wendy, do you think I should still switch production, or just whip the Axe like I had planned and wait for anger to cool off with a Worker or two? 5. I don't have mysticism OR fishing yet, but I could grab them both pretty quickly. I don't mind your criticisms, that's why I wanted a coach! I'm kinda sad I'm so far off the main path, though. I do have a question about the axe and barb city, though. Maybe it's that I don't need an axeman yet, but I imagine that's still a unit I want to have on the payroll soonish. Why is it a bad investment to send it to burn a barb city that an enemy could take? It seems my other options are to a) not make the axe (which might be reasonable) or b) keep the axe at home to defend (I don't think barbs are that big a threat yet, though). I tried to attach my sandbox save file to the post, but the forum says it is not allowed. |
