[SPOILERS] scooter, pindicator, and Huayna Capac try some fast Zulu cuisine

[pindicator]

Okay, so you're okay with letting a GG become a free pass to double-move. If that's your stance, you're entitled to it.

I don't think he considers it to be a double-move at all.

Do you? I'm honestly curious if I have a singular viewpoint in this or if what I'm arguing makes sense.

[Gazglum]

I understand your frustration Pindicator, and I agree that there is an element of unfairness to lose a city to an attack you didn't think was possible. It's not a proper reflection of your skill as a player.

But in this case, I think Commodore's move was above board. You can make a good case that what he did shouldn't be part of the game system. But it is, and I think Commodore is within his right to use the system as it stands (in the absence of an agreement to not do this kind of thing). Especially when we don't know if this ability was an accidental oversight, or an intentional design decision by the developers.

I don't agree that it's morally the same thing as a double move, which is an intent to abuse the agreed rules of the game.

There is a small silver lining here, this wasn't a no-cost move for Commodore either. He's had to sacrifice a Great General for it, so that's one less Super Frigate you have to face. I have faith that you can still cause him a lot of pain if he keeps pressing you .

[SevenSpirits]

I don't.

Here's how I think about double moves: Civ IV is designed to be a game where you take turns moving. But there is also a simultaneous mode of play where the game doesn't enforce you to take turns moving with another player, basically in order to expedite the game. We like the taking turns part, but we also like the expediency. So we play a simul-turns game and say: please take turns moving. A double move is when you don't take turns, and instead move a unit using turn X's movement points, without first giving them the chance to respond to your move from turn X-1.

I don't consider Morale to enable double moves. It adds a movement point to a unit, allowing it to move more on that turn and future turns - that's the point! While it is a game mechanic that allows a unit to move farther than your opponent expected, it isn't an artifact of playing a game designed for sequential turns in a simultaneous turns environment. In fact, it's equally effective in a sequential turns game. Its effect happens within a single turn.

A lot of aspects surrounding the game's movement point system are unintuitive. For example, a unit that has moved 9 tiles on rails, can only move 1 more tile on rails, or it could climb an uninhabited, forested hill just as easily. Is it abusing the movement system to spend a tenth of a movement point on a 3-cost move? No, that's just how it works. Some other odd facts are: you can transport a unit all the way around the world in a chain of boats, because even though switching boats costs all your movement, it doesn't require you to have any movement points available. Workers should almost always leave a small sliver of movement available so they can put a single turn into an improvement on the tile they stop on, before continuing towards their destination next turn. Chariot units can drive twice as far as infantry units on modern roads. I guess the charioteers are hitching a ride on a truck while the infantrymen walk? But they both go equally fast on railroads - that's good. The morale promo lets you add a movement point to a unit anytime during the turn. That sounds pretty useful! I mean +1 MP is good, but since the game has all these things you can do that bizarrely cost all your remaining MP rather than a fixed amount, it's particularly nice to promote to Morale after doing one of those things. One more thing to add to the list of things that only great general units can do, eh?

[Gazglum]

I agree that, once everybody is on the same page about how the mechanic works, it actually opens up the strategic potential of Great General's in an interesting way.

[pindicator]

No, that's not at all what I'm arguing
Gaining +1 move by itself is completely different. I've never said having a 3 move knight was the issue. The issue is the knight was able to do what would take any other unit 2 turns to do. And if you were to load up that knight and try to do it again the next turn, you couldn't, because it's not even a feature given to the knight by Morale. It's badly implemented game design based on a promotion occuring mid turn. And that happening breaks a lot of established rules that the game has in it:
* Moving onto an oasis tile removes all movement from a unit
* Loading onto a boat removes all movement from a unit
* Disembarking removes all movement from a unit

At least it doesn't allow you two attacks in one turn...

One more thing to add to the list of things that only great general units can do, eh?

Ok, I agree that if we decide that this is a cool GG-only feature, then fine. I'll accept it. But if you polled everybody in RB before today, would you even find 10 people who knew this was possible?

[pindicator]

And just to be clear (because i think some people are approaching my argument with this clouding their perception) I don't care about the city. Whatever this discussion decides is acceptable for RB, I won't ask for a reload. I just want to have the conversation for future games.

[NobleHelium]

Well, if I reply to the tech thread I'm probably going to get into an argument with Commodore, and I have absolutely no desire to talk to Commodore.

Anyway, moving onto an oasis does not take all your movement points, just two. I'm pretty sure you can't get another ten movement points on railroad by promoting to Morale after you've moved along ten tiles of rails (I think you get four, but I'm not certain - it might also be three). And FFH haste does not work the same way, because in FFH units can go into negative movement points remaining.

[pindicator]

At least it doesn't allow you two attacks in one turn...

Although it does allow you to attack a unit on terrain that would normally use up all your movement, and then move away

[SevenSpirits]

Ok, I agree that if we decide that this is a cool GG-only feature, then fine. I'll accept it. But if you polled everybody in RB before today, would you even find 10 people who knew this was possible?

Probably not. But there must be hundreds of things you can do that you couldn't find 10 people who knew it was possible. That's not enough for me to consider a behavior to be a bug, or using a behavior to be an exploit.

[Cyneheard]

Ok, I agree that if we decide that this is a cool GG-only feature, then fine. I'll accept it. But if you polled everybody in RB before today, would you even find 10 people who knew this was possible?

I knew about it, but wouldn't have thought about it (it's more obvious in Final Frontier, where +1 move is a promotion you can get at 10XP, and helps on their railroad equivalent).