WW 18 Siege of the Dragon! (Game Thread)

[Lewwyn]

Also the Ichabod/Pindicator relationship is weird.

What are you referring to here?

Referring to the fact it seems like Ichabod voted for Pindi because Pindi didn't do exactly what Ichabod suspected even though Pindi claims he was going to. The whole thing reminded me of scorned lovers. I know its not as applicable to the game in terms of finding alignments, but I think its strange.

I'll switch over to Azza as well.

[Bigger]

ok, I find myself forced to explain my Serdoa vote. I'm apparently the only one bothered by this (it has nothing to do with Zak's rationale for voting for Serdoa) so I want to make sure its understood.

Serdoa, you recognized what we were doing, you even mentioned in your vote analysis that you understood the votes by me, Zak, and Uber. As well you should - I spelled it out to you in our mason thread when I was doing the same thing to thestick in ww16. That worked out pretty damn well for the village. If you understood what we were doing, why did you feel it necessary to white knight Azza? Why not keep your mouth shut and see what develops? The dogpile completely dissipated thanks to you coming to his rescue, before we could get any information at all from Azza. I can't think of any pro-town motivation you could possibly have for helping Azza out.

And just becaue it annoys the hell out of me: WHEN and WHERE did I white-knight Azza? Excuse me, I pointed out suspicion on a different target. Really sorry that this player also voted for Azza. Since when is it considered that someone is innocent just because someone else acts suspicious against him ON DAY ONE!

If you don't like white knight, I'll use a more vulgar idiom to to describe what you did: cock-block (I really hope that word translates well to non-native English speakers).

Of course there wasn't any evidence against Azza. For two reasons - 1. it was 12-18 hours into the game, there is very rarely any evidence against anyone in any game at this point 2. Azza never leaves clues, which is a problem and one reason he was able to skate so easily in the endgame last game.

I didn't vote for Azza with the intention of leaving my vote on him and lynching him, I did it with the intention of forcing him to respond to the dogpile and actually giving the village some clues to work with for a change. The only way to get lurkers like Azza to participate is to put the noose to their neck (see Sareln in every game ever, and Azza is even worse than Sareln). If his response gave us scum tells, whippee! If not, maybe the dogpile gives us tells on someone else's reaction to the dogpile.
That was my intention, anyway, and uberfish's - I would gamble Zak and Lewwyn had similar motivations (Qgq's azza vote was probably just a coincidence).

You single-handedly killed the endevour. You spelled out to the whole world exactly what was going on, meaning Azza can safely ignore it until it dissipates, and scum can similarly ignore it, whether Azza is scum or not. We really got nothing at all out of Azza, and the only reaction we got to the dogpile was yours. By your own admission, you knew what we were doing, and I don't think you shut it down by accident - I DO NOT think you are an idiot at all, I have a great deal of respect for your game, and it comes across as very deliberate and cunning to me.

So why save Azza? The only reason I can think of for village Serdoa to do so is if he was convinced Azza was innocent and being railroaded for a mislynch. I put my own neck on the line last game for Brick for that reason. But if we had no scum-tells on Azza, you certainly had no town tells - Azza just doesnt leave any trail at all! OTOH, I can think of a few reasons you might do it as scum (azza might be your teammate, or maybe you wanted to be able to say "I told you so" if Azza lynched innocent).

Your reaction to Zak's accusations is just a topper. I can see why you might get angry at Q - his posts are frustratingly difficult to comprehend and he called you an idiot for some reason. But Zak hasn't insulted you and his argument is quite coherent - in fact he is being quite reasonable. Your anger towards Zak seems misplaced, I guess, and out of character.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, me and Zak are still the only ones voting for you, so it seems quite paranoid and defensive, which seems like a scum tell to me.

preview post edit: now you're voting for azza?. wow, not sure what to make of that at all.

[Bigger]

oh, disregard my last line. in the preview post text I read Zak's vote on azza as coming from serdoa.

[Selrahc]

Mattimeo

[novice]

I'm actually still voting Uberfish. Here's my "case" against him.

I don't know that I'm much wiser from day 1 so far. On rereading, I guess these posts from Uberfish give me a slight scum lean, so I'll go with that.

I'll also blatantly sheep Zakalwe on Azza

Being blatant and admitting it, and not giving any followup explanation when asked to.

and random.org says Qgqqqq for now.

What if I don't believe that vote was actually random?

Unnamed insinuations.

For the record, I dislike all this vote-disclaiming "oh my vote is meaningless and random" and "oh I'm going to be a good villager and not revenge vote you". You can't all be scum but any villagers doing this should stop because it makes it easy for the scum to hide if people are playing in deliberately neutral fashion.

Playing the good villager with general advice.

So, Uberfish, and since that means I need a new mayor vote, Ichabod.

Here's a response from him, I'm not sure how much is actually in response to my post.

re: novice: since the wagon mostly disbanded, I voted azza mainly to start a bandwagon and see how people reacted. Azza's a good target for pressure because he has played the same lurky style both as village and scum in the 2 games he's played and it's hard to read. I expect that most of the village would think the same way due to what happened in 17.

Note that I still think Q's vote on me is scummy due to the reasoning outlined above. I expected people voting for azza to have a similar mindset that azza votes were a good early move. If Q had voted someone else then I could understand attacking me.

I'm ok with waterbat's explanation of his vote.

Ichabod feels off and his vote for Pind over the mayor vote seemed rather contrived. If I were to switch it'd probably be there. Not buying the case against serdoa, he seems to be playing in his usual style.

-------------------------------------

On another note, Serdoa, please accept my aplogies. It should be possible to play this game without being needlessly offensive.

Also, if you're wondering why Qgqqqqq is so angry it's unhealthy, maybe you should reread this post of yours:

Serdoa, could you respond to my responses?
I'd like to hear your thoughtss on the case now that i'vee refuted it.

I'm not seeing it refuted, but honestly, half of your posts are making no sense for me due to the immense amount of typing errors and incoherent sentences, so I might very well not even have read it. Yes, I know, the phone, but why has that to be my problem? Why do I need to invest absurd amounts of time to figure out what you might have meant? Call me old fashioned but there is something called courtesy. And obviously you are able to type correctly (or remotely so) even on your phone, so it is not a language barrier. You just decided that you don't want to invest the time necessary to correct the errors - and again, why should I invest in that case the time to decipher it?

Ichabod's disappeared too, maybe he fled from the rancor, here's his last post:

A good point. Coupled with what I said in my above post and that I found strange.

Serdoa

Ok, honestly, I give MJW the benefit of the doubt as he hasn't played for quite some time with us. But you have Ichabod. You agreeing with MJWs "point" (that I am full of myself and that would be not normal... um, I am always full of myself, thats because most of the time I am right) does not make sense. Especially given that your own argument against me is just bad. Maybe you should take a step back and re-read what was posted by everyone, instead of trying to live up to your self proclaimed "I'm the best wolf-hunter and I will show it"-fanatism?

Sorry if I offended you, but I don't see what I did wrong. I'm just trying to have fun and that's impossible to do in WW without a bit of confidence that you are right. I think you are being unfair here.

[Rowain]

I'd like to hear some other players chime in here. On this Mexican standoff, or on anything else, really. If you're town then the thread is currently being drowned in fairly useless noise. (pun intended)

I did (and do) like Serdoas first post. His points vs Qg aren't bad IMO. All in all I did read Serdoa as town first. His outraging and wrath OTOH are IMO over the top. Afterall one that dissed him was Qg who he himself has attacked quite hard (and in case of the handy-posts rather unfairly). This

...., thats because most of the time I am right

nearly made me choke. I fstil remember him vigshototing villagers twice because he doesn't learn from mistakes and other glorious actions by him In short for that BS I would like to see him lynched but then he and I do have some history.
In short I don't like Serdoa, my personal opinion of him differs 'a bit' from his selfpicture but I do think that his first post has some merit.

About others: I have proposed a waterbat lynch here.

Another one to think about is novice.
His usual 'I agree with zak'-post

......
Serdoa

I like this.

followed by

Qgqqqqq made a vote that pushed Azza to the top of the lynch vote. And stated that it was useless.

Serdoa's case is that it's patently not useless since it put Azza in danger of being lynched.

Qgqqqqq's response is that it's useless because the Azza wagon will dissolve long before lynch anyway.

I dunno, I'm not seeing any wolves here.

So novice where do you see wolves?

[Rowain]

And I see a ton of a crosspost.

[Rowain]

@Bigger: What about refreshing the pressure on Azza now? Or do you intend to stay on Serdoa?

@Selrahc: Care to give any reason? Or is this another mini-game-vote?

[Bigger]

@Bigger: What about refreshing the pressure on Azza now? Or do you intend to stay on Serdoa?

It couldnt hurt. It seems I'm the only one voting for Serdoa atm anyway. Maybe I was premature in aborting the effort, I guess its not too late to get Azza to actually participate.

[Ichabod]

A good point. Coupled with what I said in my above post and that I found strange.

Serdoa

Ok, honestly, I give MJW the benefit of the doubt as he hasn't played for quite some time with us. But you have Ichabod. You agreeing with MJWs "point" (that I am full of myself and that would be not normal... um, I am always full of myself, thats because most of the time I am right) does not make sense. Especially given that your own argument against me is just bad. Maybe you should take a step back and re-read what was posted by everyone, instead of trying to live up to your self proclaimed "I'm the best wolf-hunter and I will show it"-fanatism?

Sorry if I offended you, but I don't see what I did wrong. I'm just trying to have fun and that's impossible to do in WW without a bit of confidence that you are right. I think you are being unfair here.

Same here, sorry for my harsh words. I actually think you are a quite capable player and what I wrote there was certainly not necessary.

I didn't answer this earlier because I had a lot of annoying internet/power problems at home due to heavy rain and wind this night. No hard feelings from my part, that's for sure.