Dot mapping

[Gold Ergo Sum]

That hammer difference is probably too huge to overcome. I would do HF for HE.

[Sullla]

Think of Heroic Epic as being a wonder that's strongest in the midgame. In the Kremlin/factory/State Property era, every city can build units quickly. You want to put the Heroic Epic in a place where you can build units in one and two turns during the medieval period, at a time when other cities would take 4-5 turns to produce maces/knights/elephants. This is also the period where the game is most likely to be decided, during the next 50-75 turns. We've seen from past PBEM and Pitboss games that the game is nearly always decided by the time the Industrial era begins. I don't really care if a spot is really good in the Biology farm / State Property workshop era. That's simply too late to matter. (Again, another comparison for those who were around during the Civ3 days: early Heroic Epic in a good but not great location is just like an early Forbidden Palace in a good but not great location. Trying to pick a more perfect lategame location turns out to be wasteful.)

In this game, Focal Point is a much weaker spot than Forbidden Fruit until much later in the game. I don't consider it to be a good choice. If the argument against Forbidden Fruit is that it's "too good" for a Heroic Epic city, I'm more than willing to live with that. (Keep in mind that all of the cottage tiles at FF are getting traded long term to the capital. We'll only be working the coast, corn, iron, and the hill mines. One silk resource does not a commerce city make.)

[Gold Ergo Sum]

I assume you mean Horse Feathers, not Forbidden Fruit?

[Nicolae Carpathia]

You mean Horse Feathers, right?

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Think of Heroic Epic as being a wonder that's strongest in the midgame. In the Kremlin/factory/State Property era, every city can build units quickly. You want to put the Heroic Epic in a place where you can build units in one and two turns during the medieval period, at a time when other cities would take 4-5 turns to produce maces/knights/elephants. This is also the period where the game is most likely to be decided, during the next 50-75 turns. We've seen from past PBEM and Pitboss games that the game is nearly always decided by the time the Industrial era begins. I don't really care if a spot is really good in the Biology farm / State Property workshop era. That's simply too late to matter. (Again, another comparison for those who were around during the Civ3 days: early Heroic Epic in a good but not great location is just like an early Forbidden Palace in a good but not great location. Trying to pick a more perfect lategame location turns out to be wasteful.)

In this game, Focal Point is a much weaker spot than Forbidden Fruit until much later in the game. I don't consider it to be a good choice. If the argument against Forbidden Fruit is that it's "too good" for a Heroic Epic city, I'm more than willing to live with that. (Keep in mind that all of the cottage tiles at FF are getting traded long term to the capital. We'll only be working the coast, corn, iron, and the hill mines. One silk resource does not a commerce city make.)

Clearly he means Horse Feathers, not Forbidden Fruit. From above, "We'll only be working the coast, corn, iron, and the hill mines".

Three commerce per coast tile is nice, but I'm more in agreement with the reasoning above. Let's get it built where we can benefit from it soonest. If we don't put in all the commerce modifiers, so be it. It's just 3c/coast tile and a plantation. That would be eh...7*3c coast/lake + 5c for the plantation, so 26c/turn that wouldn't get washed through modifiers once HF is full size. Not terrible, especially when we could put the hammers into half price units instead of hundreds of hammers for libraries, markets, etc. We have plenty of commerce cities already but we're going to need scores of units very soon.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Haha, 3/3 jumped onto Sulla for that

Pretty much agree with Boldly's outline, we've already got commerce coming out the wazoo, what we really lack is a dedicated unit pump to churn out wellies to ruin someone's day (day ruining also includes shutting down their poorly conceived attack plans).

[spacetyrantxenu]

It would also be nice to have the HE a few tiles closer to the border where we're liable to need the units sooner, so HF being closer to the Aztecs is another small bonus in addition to the reasons mentioned above.

[sooooo]

After reading sullla's latest report, I do actually like the look of heroic epic in focal point.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

After reading sullla's latest report, I do actually like the look of heroic epic in focal point.

What specifically about FP do you prefer? Post-biology it is certainly better, but before that time we can build it sooner in HF, which appears the more critical time for churning out discount units. Once we get to biology we can manage several cities for large food surpluses and workshop hammers, so HE won't be as unique at that stage. I can be convinced of the value of FP as a better site but need more information on your reasoning.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

The issue is, what do we do with Focal Point?

Once Literature comes in, we'll already have Moai and significantly more pop. Horse Feathers will be much more productive than FP, which means that yes, it'll both build HE faster and churn out knights faster. So no question there, what do we do with FP, make it a mediocre unit pump? Build wealth?