[PB25-SPOILERS] The Lunacy of the Reign of HAK Continues

[HitAnyKey]

I've been wanting to mention it, but keep forgetting. One nice thing is that Commodore and I have been keeping status quo with EP. The past many turns I've been sitting at 51 EP into him, and him with 60 EP into me. Basically just enough for us to see each others graphs. This has allowed me to keep putting 2 EP/turn into Grimace (and he is doing the same into me) and then put 1 each into retap and Borsche. retap has been putting none into me and Borsche seems to be putting 2 into me. Just decided to move the 1 from Borsche into retap so that I can get retap's graphs in 4 turns instead of 7. Then I'll switch to putting the 2 EP/turn into Borsche.

This turn retap settled his City4. So the guy who was almost last to getting his City2, settled his City3 the turn after it, then 8 turns later gets his City4. He certainly recovered from that slow start quickly. Overall score he's down near the bottom, but getting his 4th city out as the 2nd person to do so should help him.
Our Axe moved onto the hill for our C4 to find a Barb warrior on the tile 1SE of him. Hopefully it'll attack this turn for our Axe to get some XP.
Everything else is going as planned on the spreadsheet. Next turn Hungry grows back to Size3. And 2 turns after that we get AH. Borders of Sleepy also expand next turn which will be nice for earlier warning of incoming barbs.

[MindyMcCready]

HI HAK,

The following are some very choppy observations that I made after doing a sim last night. I think that we need to refine your tracking abit.

Please read to the bottom before replying to anything since I often observed somethings that contradicted an earlier point.

Also, I'll try to beat your SIM and if so, I'll post detailed instructions tomorrow AM.

Cheers!

Mindy

This turn retap settled his City4. So the guy who was almost last to getting his City2, settled his City3 the turn after it, then 8 turns later gets his City4. He certainly recovered from that slow start quickly.

Well given that he's Expansive and Imperialistic it's bizarre that he had a slow start. He should have been beating everyone effortlessly.

Our Axe moved onto the hill for our C4 to find a Barb warrior on the tile 1SE of him. Hopefully it'll attack this turn for our Axe to get some XP.

A W2 Axe would be a true gift.

So that hill,...can we see any culture from Grimace?

Everything else is going as planned on the spreadsheet. Next turn Hungry grows back to Size3. And 2 turns after that we get AH. Borders of Sleepy also expand next turn which will be nice for earlier warning of incoming barbs.

As planned on the spreadsheet means the yellow column in 'Path Comparions', right?

If so:
1. Seems heavy on military given that we have 2 choke points. That type of military investment could set Grimace off and make him heavily fortify his marble city. Further, with the western spear acting as eyes, we don't have an immediate need for additional military to the west.
2. I think that what we want to do as much as possible is have eyes past City2. At this point of the game, defense of an established city is impossible to overcome with a bit of notice, so we should be safe there with a couple of whips.
3. For the move on Grimace, we need to hit him as soon as possible after he hits size 2. If he only has 1 unit + 1 whip then 4 of our own units should take the city no problem. To accomplish this we should give him as little time as possible to react which means whip-chopping out the 4 units. Once the granary is finsihed in C3, pre-build an axe and before completing, switch to a spear. Try to time some chops and whip whatever else we need so that all units come out as close as possible to each other.
4. C4 doesn't need a culture IMO. We don't care about the marble and we intend to take whatever city Grimace plants. We really only need a granary. C5 will want the culture for the cows,...but that can probably come from a library given all the good 1st ring tiles that we have.
5. T65 it looks like you're starting a barracks in the capital? We have the tech for a library at that point I believe, alternatively a lighthouse or more expansive workers seem like a better investment. C2 already has a barracks and can produce the promoted military to protect itself.
6. T66 C3 is starting a galley. C3 suffered badly in my SIM from the simultaneous need for culture + granary + lighthouse while growing slowly. I think that this city should stick to developing itself.
7. C4 looks to be starting a barracks on T65. We should delay the XP in favour of volume of units and sooner. Pre-building the Axe-spear and then whipping out seems better to me. At 60H, we gaining 10% power on a couple of units and losing nearly 2 axes (half or near half of our assault team,...)
8. Ok I found it - now you're in trouble. T69 it says that you're whipping a Granary in C2. That city whipped an axe on T57. Very inefficient compared to the reverse.

A handful of score increases again this turn. I'm able to understand and figure out a few of them, but I'm just about at my limits of tracking Score changes. So probably within the next couple I'm just going to stop.

Yes, I don't think that this is something that is worth keeping up with anymore. It's most valuable early on when determining if someone is going to rush you or if you want to rush someone else. Keeping an eye on power graph levels tells enough of the story by the mid point of the game. Grimace is worth tracking still.

Nothing else all that special this turn. Sleepy grew, and is now working on the Settler. Hungry finishes it's Worker next turn, to move onto an Axe.

I simmed up to T70 last night. Just like C&D the value of simming does decline, however once or twice through is still very valuable since it helps identify problems. When I simmed, I had 2 workers around Hungry which was too much given that a lighthouse gives 4 valuable lake tiles that require no improvement. I also had 2 workers around cities 4/5 which was too little by far. I had 7 workers before T69 but I think that I was catching up. More workers sooner would have been better in getting granaries in all the cities sooner.

I can't really tell how many workers you have in your spreadsheet. Oh, reading more carefully,..."3 workers improve C4"=GOLD STAR!

It's also difficult to tell which cities have granaries. I can't really tell at a glance whether you're whipping without granaries,...but you don't get a significant benefit from whipping in the absence of a granary. You're converting 26ish food into 30 hammers which is ok when you're at the happy cap anyway, but isn't the same thing as getting 30 hammers from 13 food.

[HitAnyKey]

Quick reply since I'll actually be busy with work again today. By the end of my sim I was in some spots just randomly picking things to build without any clear plan for them. So a good amount of that military was because of that. It was also only my first run through going that far. My main thoughts were centered on getting that Stone city as quickly as possible after Fur city, so most other activities ended up being half-thoughts.
Good points on doing partial builds on the military we'll want to use down by the Marble. I'll do a SIM with that in mind. Also with having C4 skip the Monument. I originally did it so we'd have our first culture expansion before Grimace, but good point on the fact that we'd likely be trying to take his city before his culture expands.
The Barracks in the apital at T65 again was just cuz it was getting late and I couldn't think of anything else. Library would make much more sense. I had C3 build the Galley while C1 was building the Settler, with C2 building the military. This for the Stone settling plan, basically with each city building one of the necessary pieces. Could always have C2 build the Galley earlier, use it for exploring the land over there a bit while waiting for the support & settler. I'll try that in my next sim as well.
On your point #8...yeah, whipping the Axe and then later on whipping a Granary was probably not very efficient. I'll reverse them in my next sim. The reason I had done that originally was I wanted that Axe out as quickly as possible, since it'd be needed down south to clear the way for City5. If I can do the Granary first, then the Axe and still have it down there timely, I'll do so.

I'll respond to any other of your comments later.

[MindyMcCready]

Thanks for your comments.

YOU'RE BUSY WITH WORK TODAY!?!!? Last I heard you didn't have the burden of work,...is there a development there? If so, congrats!

Onto business. I'm not really fussed about getting to the stone city so quickly. Xenu pointed out that we don't actually know if that city generates ICTR or not and we won't know that for quite some time (or until we plant). So that city will have to stand on its own merits which means finding food. Perhaps a wb from C2 (after the granary). I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't incur high opportunity cost to get that city earlier. I'm more than willing to whip any city to land C4 and C5 earlier as well as whipping C4/C5 to land us the marble city,...but the stone city,... not unless we reveal greater value than we can currently see.

Right now I'm most interested in what the western spear and the C4-location axe are seeing since that could have a big impact on strategy. If you get half a chance to post some picks that would be great. Good luck with work.

[HitAnyKey]

YOU'RE BUSY WITH WORK TODAY!?!!? Last I heard you didn't have the burden of work,...is there a development there? If so, congrats!

It's essentially part-time consulting. One of my former directors got me hired at her new company to help them with some stuff they need done in their Oracle Financials system. I end up working anywhere from 2-5 hours in a day on average, depending on what they need me to help with. Yesterday I put in my first 7-hr day with them. Today might have some good amount of stuff for me to work on too.

[HitAnyKey]

Just spent all afternoon running a new SIM, taking a whole different way of doing things. And I think so far I like it better. It does delay the Stone city by probably a good 5 turns. But it gets us our "hopefully" surprise Axe force ready to move out on like T78 or 79. I did a few builds near the end that I probably could have put off, and I'm sure I didn't time the various Axes coming out of the different cities well enough. Will have to try again later...or just wait until we have some more real-game details (such as where/if we have Horses). So I'm not going to do any more SIMs until we get AH in 2 turns.
This new sim (which involved most of the whips going for Granaries early on) allowed the nation to grow huge by T77 (C1, C2, & C4 all size 7...C3 size 5) and had 7 workers running around.
It's the column of the spreadsheet which is now highlighted.

[HitAnyKey]

Here are those two screenshots you asked for.
First the West. Something I forgot to mention a few turns ago....we caught a glimpse of GermanJoey's borders across the water over there. I didn't keep going west with the Spear (so as to meet him) because I had lost track of a Barb Warrior south of me and needed to backtrack to make sure it didn't slip past me to destroy my unprotected Happy.


Next turn he'll be going west onto the hill, and then NW onto the corn. Then I guess he'll continue up to officially meet GJ before returning back to Happy to be the MP there.

Down in the SE, the first barb warrior did not attack my Axe (I'm guessing he moved off eastward somewhere) so I moved the Axe 1SW because I was hoping to then move the scout 1S for spawnbusting, but he found another barb there. So the scout stayed in place this turn (he's still got a lot of healing to do anyway).


Hopefully that barb will attack the axe, who will then move back NE next turn to return to the hill to be there when that back worker moves there next turn. The scout will just stay in place as long as he can while he heals, being prepared to flee at the first sign of danger.

Oh, and the minor beaker difference between my sandbox and the real game.....apparently we're getting AH at the end of this turn, and not the end of next turn. So that's pretty sweet!
Borders of Sleepy also expanded this turn. I'll get an image of that at some point, but it didn't really show us too much more. just one more tile 1N up the coast of Stone-land....showing a Jungle tile with Bananas on it.

[MindyMcCready]

Thanks.

First the West. Something I forgot to mention a few turns ago....we caught a glimpse of GermanJoey's borders across the water over there. I didn't keep going west with the Spear (so as to meet him) because I had lost track of a Barb Warrior south of me and needed to backtrack to make sure it didn't slip past me to destroy my unprotected Happy.

So my first thought is that, depending on what the scout reveals, we should reposition the city west of Happy 1E. That would give us an additional naval city that can't be easily boated. Could be important for achieving naval dominance and in landing stone island if we choose to do so.

I don't want to give up a defensive choke point of course, but maybe we'll get another city next to the corn that also allows that. FOrting the wines allows for easier naval movement than the previous path as well.

Down in the SE, the first barb warrior did not attack my Axe,...

You know that you get more XP from attacking than defending? TBH I've never paid too much attention to the XP system, but it may be worth it to get a W2. If I have a chance I'll try to look into that today.

Just spent all afternoon running a new SIM, taking a whole different way of doing things. And I think so far I like it better. It does delay the Stone city by probably a good 5 turns. But it gets us our "hopefully" surprise Axe force ready to move out on like T78 or 79. I did a few builds near the end that I probably could have put off, and I'm sure I didn't time the various Axes coming out of the different cities well enough. Will have to try again later...or just wait until we have some more real-game details (such as where/if we have Horses). So I'm not going to do any more SIMs until we get AH in 2 turns.
This new sim (which involved most of the whips going for Granaries early on) allowed the nation to grow huge by T77 (C1, C2, & C4 all size 7...C3 size 5) and had 7 workers running around.
It's the column of the spreadsheet which is now highlighted.

Simming and recording your movements is a big time committment. But it paid off! That does look much better than the previous sim to be sure - a huge productivity jump. The key to the city sizes is a lighthouse in C2 which I'm sure that you've noticed. It allows C2 to grow very fast at the same time that C1 uses all of its food.

I did my own sim where I planted the western city before T77. Plus and minuses:
PLUS - I had established the western city (C3-5W) around T75 I think and the cows were pastured. Moving the city 1E allowed quicker setup for the settler travel times but also for the worker travel times.
MINUS - Capital was 2 sizes behind due to settler build
MINUS/Neutral - Other city sizes were slightly behind by not significantly
Minus - Library was being build in the capital but not yet complete.
PLUS - Gallery was completed several turns prior and would have scouted the island.
PLUS - An embarassment of riches in the military department. Primarily due to lack of alternatives. I might be exaggerating, but it felt beyond needs. This would mesh well with the galley being completed earlier.
PLUS - Military would have been ready to go several turn prior to T77 without whipping C4 (which I certainly would have been doing if we're making a move - hitting Grimace earlier matters).

There are pros and cons to the two approaches - you're probably teching noticeably quicker. As of right now I'd favour more expansion over bigger city sizes primarily since this map is so rich. In a sense we're comparing landing the next wet corn versus growing onto a GHM or a riverside cottage. We're not yet at the point that city maintenance becomes crippling so we should probably favour investing more in expansion.

I'll try to post details of my SIM this afternoon,...but I stopped recording exact movements by T68 I think so the rest was a quick playthrough to get to your T77 benchmark. Might not matter since horses should be visible next turn.

[MindyMcCready]

I posted my results in your path comparisons and the T67 detailed moves in a new Tab. I was using the T49 start point you provided so that might have contributed to some differences.

The other drawback of your large city scenario (and mine as well for that matter) is that we're going to have to have units in every city for MP. This is not a bad thing per se,...but it forces us to inflate our miltary to levels that may cause alarm but without the ability to concentrate it. We could try to avoid this by putting more food-hammers into settlers to keep the cities 1 size lower while we gear up for the Grimace assault. It's an idea,...not sure if it's a great idea. LOL.

If you see stuff that you can use in my scenario,...great,...but we'll both probably be re-simming for horses. If at all possible (and it might not be due to barb), I'd like that axe to move to the C4 site so that we can see if Grimace settle one of those 2 hills SW of his capital. If you think a new SIM is in order,...post your sandbox for that turn if you have time so that we'd both start from the same spot. Also, I continue to be interested in what that spear uncovers to the west since that will dictate whether our western city can move over 1 spot or not.

[HitAnyKey]

So C5 will also have Horses in addition to it's Pig/Ivory/Fur/Cow tiles.




Guess I'll have to build that into the Worker plan. The prior plans had me ignoring that tile the entire time.

As you can see our Axe went into battle. The Barb moved across the river, I killed it this turn. And I can see where that other barb went. If he comes back SW, I can have my Axe attack that one as well with pretty good odds...as I'd like to save promoting him for when I give him City Attack for wartime.