[SPOILERS] Will the Sun(rise) Ever Set on Washington, Mongolia?

[Ichabod]

You said the new city (4th) takes a bit to get off the ground. I think that with the micro plan I presented, this will get better, at least a bit (wheat farm being finished 2 turns earlier is pretty big). And is important to be prepared to have a WB ready for the clam, as soon as the tile gets inside your borders.

Ah, after the horse is improved, perhaps plan os chopping the forest 1N to speed the granary (which will speed the monument). Or perhaps think of a way to whip the granary (from size 2 to 1 or size 3 to 2, gotta plan to see what works better) and use the chop for the monument. The faster you can get a granary and monument there, while trying to work both resouce (wheat and horse) tiles as long as possible, the better.

Besides, if you settle the pig/gold site I suggested, your workers will be in a good position to start improving it.

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Your plans end up with too much military. Can you think of different things to build in place of some of those military units? Stanford, for instance, could build a WB for a city in your south, instead of one of them (not sure if that's a good idea, but just to give you something to think about -> can I get a settler from Wendy to settle south of Stanford - that site with crabs on first ring - while having a military unit to escort and a WB ready to improve the crab as soon as the city is settled? Can I manage to have a worker there, to chop a granary/finish a cottage?).

[Whosit]

I'll give that a try. You're right that I should get the wheat improved faster.

I do understand most of the principles you've explained, and I try not to complete improvements I won't use. When Growing Stanford and Wendy, I always swap them from a mine to a cottage as it becomes available, though I probably need to throw down the cottages faster. I think I even had Soos work a cottage for the capital until the cap grew large enough to take it back.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to find a way to modify the new plan you submitted because I already completed T53 and split the workers to farm and road. The clock was running out, though I suppose I could have waited a little longer.... I'll post in a few after trying what I can in the sandbox.

[Whosit]

I'll see what I can do to cut back on military. And I believe when I was working with 4th city before, I did chop the forest into the granary, then I think I was able to whip it at size 2. Then Monument.

As far as cities in the north go, I still really like the sheep/pig city on the hill. What about putting the gold city 1W of the Gold tile. If I settled it after the pig/sheep city (which isn't so isolated since the wheat/horse city is there), it could still work the pigs immediately, and the sheep would be enough to feed the other city if it just grew on cottages.

[Ichabod]

As far as cities in the north go, I still really like the sheep/pig city on the hill. What about putting the gold city 1W of the Gold tile. If I settled it after the pig/sheep city (which isn't so isolated since the wheat/horse city is there), it could still work the pigs immediately, and the sheep would be enough to feed the other city if it just grew on cottages.

Considering the tiles, that city is really good. You need at least 2 workers from the get go there, I'd say. Perhaps even a third to chop while the others pasture. If you can provide the workers, it's a very good city indeed (and the proposed gold city fits pretty nicely with it).

[Whosit]

In past efforts, I've always been able to ensure 2 Workers to start pasturing the pigs for the pig/sheep city, so I'm confident I can find the means. Here's what I tried to do with the other works (I need to log into the MP game to make sure I can stop a couple worker actions. I recall some other player always stops each worker action every turn... more micro and button clicks, but maybe I should do the same).

T54: Worker at (1,5) stop road, move to (0,5) Pasture (stop); Worker at (2,2) stop farm, Move to (1,5).
T55: Worker at (0,5) Move to (1,5) Road (finish); Worker at (1,5) Move to (2,6) Road; Worker at (-1,3) Move to (1,4).
T56: 3 Workers Finish Road, put 2 turns into Farm.
T57: Finish Wheat Farm; Chop at Stanford finishes.
T58: Stanford (Worker > Settler); Worker at (1,1) Move to (2,2) Farm; 1 Worker at (2,6) Move to (0,4) Pasture; 2 Workers at (2,6) Move to (2,7) Cottage (stop); New Worker at (0,0) Move to (0,2) Cottage (???).
T59: 2 Workers at (2,7) Move to (2,8) Pasture.

I'll probably want to alter a couple of those actions. I saw you did like me at (1,3) (plains south of Soos) and just put a turn into a Farm. Yeah, I can't think of anything else to do on that tile, either. This isn't as smooth as yours because I moved a couple workers out of position, and I waste a couple worker turns, but it does get the Wheat farm built quickly, so might still be the best option.

[Whosit]

It's annoying I can't connect to the game with anyone else logged in, even though I have the fix applied. The fix hasn't worked ever since I moved, so maybe it's the router here. Bleh.

[Whosit]

OK, got in, worker actions cancelled.

[Whosit]

OK, I tried to modify and extended to T70. I know there are a lot of problems. I messed up micro and tried to soldier on, and didn't get granaries done as soon as I should have.

T54: Worker at (1,5) stop road, move to (0,5) Pasture (stop); Worker at (2,2) stop farm, Move to (1,5); Worker at (-1,-1) Move to (1,1).
T55: Worker at (0,5) Move to (1,5) Road (finish); Worker at (1,5) Move to (2,6) Road; Worker at (-1,3) Move to (1,4); Worker at (1,1) Move to (2,2) Farm.
T56: 3 Workers Finish Road, put 2 turns into Farm.
T57: Finish Wheat Farm.
T58: Stanford (Worker > Settler); 1 Worker at (2,6) Move to (0,4) Pasture; 2 Workers at (2,6) Move to (2,7) Cottage (stop); New Worker at (0,0) Move to (1,1).
T59: 2 Workers at (2,7) Move to (2,8) Pasture; Worker at (1,1) Chop to Stanford.
T60: Wendy (Worker > Monument); New Worker at Wendy Move to (-3,0) Cottage; FP Farm and Horse Pasture Finish (Soos Work).
T61: Chop at Stanford Finish; 1 Worker at Dipper Horse Move to (2,9); 1 Worker at Dipper Horse Move to (3,8); Worker at (2,2) Move to (1,3) Farm (stop); Worker at (0,5) Move to (1,3) Farm (stop).
T62: Soos (Archer > Barracks); 1 Worker at (1,3) Move to (0,2) Cottage; 1 Worker at (1,3) Move to (2,7); Worker at (3,8) Chop to Dipper; Worker at (2,9) Road (stop); Worker at (1,1) Move to (0,2) Cottage; Whip Wendy (Monument).
T63: Stanford (Settler > Granary); Wendy (Monument > Work Boat); Swap Soos to Worker; Worker at (2,9) Move to (1,10); Worker at (2,7) Move to (2,9); Wendy & Stanford work new cottages.
T64: Workers at (1,10) and (2,9) Road; STOP Worker Chopping at Dipper (argh messed up) Move 1W (2,8) Road; 1 Worker at (0,2) Move to (1,0) Cottage; 1 Worker at (0,2) Move to (-1,2); Worker at (-3,0) Move to (-5,-1).
T65: All roads up north finish.... Move Settler to Hill; Worker at (2,9) Move to (0,10); Worker at (-5,-1) Chop to Wendy; Swap Wendy to Settler; Worker at (-1,2) Chop to Stanford.
T66: Writing > Maths (0%); Settler Mabel Pines; 2 Workers Pasture Pigs; Worker at (2,8) Move to (2,7) Cottage.
T67: Soos (Worker > Barracks); Chops at Wendy and Stanford Finish (Stanford works new cottage, Granary finish EoT, 6/30 food +7); New Worker at Soos Move to (0,3) Farm.
T68: Stanford (Granary > Archer); Worker at (-1,2) Move to (0,3) Farm; Worker at (1,0) Move to (0,-1) Cottage; Pig Pasture Finish, 2 Workers Road; Worker at (2,7) Move to (3,8); Whip Dipper (Granary, 10/26 food); Worker at (-5,-1) Beeline to (-1,-3) 3 turns. **no wait this is wrong!!**
T69: Dipper (Granary > Monument); Dipper Worker chop (finish); Pig Workers to Sheep, Pasture; Soos swap to grass farm from Copper.
T70: Dipper (Monument > Work Boat?); ????

Forgot that I wanted next city to be gold, not south crab.

Units: Worker 7, Archer 1, Warrior 7, Axe 1, Spearman 1
Demos: GNP 37 (100%); Prod 23, Food 63
5 Cities with 17 pop

Demos and population points are much lower than previous attempts, so clearly I need to fix things. Not flubbing up and getting granary in Dipper faster would be good. Easy fix would probably be roading Horses before sending those workers elsewhere. I think? Basically, I want City 5 to be the pig/sheep hill city, and City 6 to be gold (but I forgot that towards the end, was rushing).

[Ichabod]

In past efforts, I've always been able to ensure 2 Workers to start pasturing the pigs for the pig/sheep city, so I'm confident I can find the means. Here's what I tried to do with the other works (I need to log into the MP game to make sure I can stop a couple worker actions. I recall some other player always stops each worker action every turn... more micro and button clicks, but maybe I should do the same).

T54: Worker at (1,5) stop road, move to (0,5) Pasture (stop); Worker at (2,2) stop farm, Move to (1,5).
T55: Worker at (0,5) Move to (1,5) Road (finish); Worker at (1,5) Move to (2,6) Road; Worker at (-1,3) Move to (1,4).
T56: 3 Workers Finish Road, put 2 turns into Farm.
T57: Finish Wheat Farm; Chop at Stanford finishes.
T58: Stanford (Worker > Settler); Worker at (1,1) Move to (2,2) Farm; 1 Worker at (2,6) Move to (0,4) Pasture; 2 Workers at (2,6) Move to (2,7) Cottage (stop); New Worker at (0,0) Move to (0,2) Cottage (???).
T59: 2 Workers at (2,7) Move to (2,8) Pasture.

I'll probably want to alter a couple of those actions. I saw you did like me at (1,3) (plains south of Soos) and just put a turn into a Farm. Yeah, I can't think of anything else to do on that tile, either. This isn't as smooth as yours because I moved a couple workers out of position, and I waste a couple worker turns, but it does get the Wheat farm built quickly, so might still be the best option.

You can get 1 extra worker turn by doing the following:

T54: Worker at (1,5) stop road, move to (2,6), road; worker at (2,2) moves to (1,4), farm, stop.
T55: Worker at (2,6), finish road; worker at (1,4), finish road at (1,5).
T56: both workers farm wheat at (2,6).

This way, you'll get a spare worker turn on T57 to compensate for the 1 turn you put into the horse pasture on your previous micro plan (your T54). But you also get an extra turn on the farm 1S of Soos (which I did in mine T54).

Can you see why I think this one is a little better?

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The new worker you get on turn 58 can, perhaps, help finishing the fp farm (not sure if its worth, just a suggestion)? I think soos wants the pasture and the farm soon, so it can grow into the horse and copper at size 3 and 4. Otherwise, the growth of the city will be very slow.

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After you have the wheat, both horses and the fp farm ready, is time to think about what to do with the new city, the pig/sheep. Things to think about:

1. Is there a way to road to the city that will make the settler arrive there sooner? Do I need to road to the city to get a TR? Overall, is roading to the city worth it, or would I just be wasting worker turns?

2. Can I get 2 workers ready to start improving the pigs (best tile) on the same turn the city is settled? Can I perhaps get 4 (!) workers on that tile, so I can get it improved on the same turn it's settled? Probably not doable, but it's worth to think about.

3. Would pre-chopping a forest for the city be worth it? Remember that you can start chopping tiles outside of your borders (and remember to always cancel an order to chop a forest, every turn - when is time to put the final turn into the chop, check to see if the forest is going where you want it to go).

As a rule, always cancel worker orders, every turn. This is pitboss, so there's no way to go back on these mistakes, so better to be safe than sorry.

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Where are you planning to place your 6th city? If you go for the crab spot south of Stanford, shouldn't your workers be preparing to improve there right now (perhaps a road to that spot is better than some more cottages to the Capital)? Or do they have time to do something else?

I value a city south next as a better move than the gold city (as a 6th city), because the gold city would only steal a food resource, not get a new one. A city to the south would get a new one, that could be improved on the same turn the city is settled (provided you can make a WB for it). You can maybe get a settler in Wendy and the WB in Stanford, or a settler in Stanford and a WB in Soos. There's quite a bit of options.

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I hope I'm helping more than hindering you, Whosit. It's though to start working together in the middle of a game. I really hope my advice is making some sense.

Anyway, I think what I'd do is get a granary (most likely whip it) in Stanford after the settler and grow that city all that you can. Not stopping to get another settler or something like that. It may make things look worse now, but it'll benefit you later. The settler for the 5th city can come from Wendy -> grow it a bit on the monument (not need to finish it, you can complete it with the overflow from the settler later) and later whip the settler.

That being said, if you feel that the new plans you are making following my advice are getting worse results, just go with the old ones. Otherwise, you'll feel bad later.

[Ichabod]

If you can give me an updated sandbox, I can do some simming over the weekend. Perhaps then we'll have more to talk about.

You don't need to fix gold/beakers, nor maintenance, by the way (military units movements too). I'm mostly interested in worker actions and city management.