[no players] CiVI Lurking Part II: Sophomore Slump

[Rowain]

Rowain: You're kidding, right? The bulk of TAD's army was 6 crossbowman. He managed to annihilate Sing's forces, take a city and stopped at the second, heavily defended, only because of Alh's and ODavy's threat. And the second part of the war was against significantly superior musketmen.

You say superior Musketman. Isn't it amazing that Singaboy who previously lost with Frankfurt his second city (which was a real powerhouse ) and another citie is so much ahead that he can stop archdukes army from taking Aachen? Archduke bent his Empire to get the second GG and this Force of Crossbows and all he has to show for it is one mediocre city which won't become useful because it is occupied.

[Esteon]

I'm sorry, but that wasn't what we discussed. The GG insane stacking bonus was.

Trivially, wrecking your economy to get all the GG, sustain an army and more importantly fighting every single war will get you in trouble no matter what.

[Mardoc]

How insane can the stacking bonus be if you have to spend so much on it that you end up an era behind in military tech to get it?

Normally I would think an 'insane' bonus would let you win any war you want.

[Esteon]

Fair enough. How about 'crazy'?

But again - do you really think TheArchDuke _had_ to wreck his econ to get the double GG?

What I'm trying (unsuccessfully, it seems) to point out is that in a more balanced game and with more experienced players (by that I mean with, say, a year worth of Civ6) it'll be crucial not to let anyone land a 2xGG combo. And I'm not particularly fond of One-True-Way strategies.

[MJW (ya that one)]

There can only be one insane thing in the first place and that insane thing here is Persia (about the same power at least and doesn't require you to do anything).  It's just obvious that Firaxis messed up.

[Mardoc]

Fair enough. How about 'crazy'?

But again - do you really think TheArchDuke _had_ to wreck his econ to get the double GG?

What I'm trying (unsuccessfully, it seems) to point out is that in a more balanced game and with more experienced players (by that I mean with, say, a year worth of Civ6) it'll be crucial not to let anyone land a 2xGG combo. And I'm not particularly fond of One-True-Way strategies.

I understand, I just disagree (well, to be specific, I don't think it's proven yet).  GGs seem to be one powerful element, but so are walls, and the right unit mix, and the right tactics, and encampments, and some UU's.  I'm not convinced that any element of this is broken, and I won't be until we see people becoming unstoppable. The most notable thing about Archduke's use of double GG's...is that he was stopped. So far the only thing that seems unstoppable is Legions, and even there, Sullla's success clearly relied on other factors too.

I mean, both OleDavy and Singaboy complained about 'how am I supposed to oppose that?' but both of them actually found a way. It didn't appear to be anything egregious on Archduke's side; at least I can't point to any specific mistake. Singaboy in particular: he just kept trickling units in; imagine how well he'd have done if they were all present when Archduke declared!

[Rowain]

As much as I like Alhambrams play so far I wonder what he wants to achieve with his invasion in the east? Does he really expect Oledavy allows him to get a lot of Cities there? His original motivation ( dipping the scales on the eastern continent to get a counterweight for Woden) is gone. Oledavy should be able to kill off Archduke with his current forces (and take in Singaboy's land a little later).

If Woden follows this accurately he should lend Archduke some money for upgrades. It is in Wodens interest if the east stays as much divided as possible.

[pindicator]

This has been and continues to be a crazy interesting game.

[Ituralde]

Yeah, I'm too caught up in reading all the threads to comment here. Very entertaining and I'm learning a lot!

[Mardoc]

I have to say, I'm impressed with both Alhambram and OleDavy's game sense here.  Alhambram was right, if OleDavy conquers the east he'll be the new favorite.  Which meant OleDavy was correct to fear war with Alhambram and prepare to fight by signing a DoF...which may well result in Alhambram backing down and letting OleDavy have peace for now.

It will be interesting to see what Woden does next.  I feel like he's a more passive player than Alhambram and OleDavy, which is his biggest risk in the times ahead.  If he doesn't commit to joining a 2v1 (and doesn't manage to get the majority of the spoils) then I think his building prowess will be outweighed by sheer mass.  I could see either Alhambram or OleDavy managing to grow enough by war, if they navigate the next 30-40 turns correctly. I can even imagine the two of them putting up with an uneasy truce long enough to decide to switch targets and hit Woden together.

Also, because it seems likely that Archduke joins us here shortly, I want to highlight something for him:

And holy shit. Of all the scenarios I was expecting when I finally invaded this was not the one.

Allow me a moment of cathartic relief/gloating here, with the understanding that I always feel guilty to have a role in the elimination of anyone, and that I have the utmost respect for Archduke as a player this game.

He has been my bogeyman for over 100 turns now, from the moment he pillaged my trader, I've been in what I have felt like was an eternal war with him. Whether it was the turn I thought I lost Lafayette, or the turn during the last war when he mopped the floor with me, he has been a persistent and terrifying opponent.

On a related note:  it seems very clear that Archduke only fell this fast because he was dogpiled.  Give him time to deploy to face a single opponent, give him the ability to use his Niter, and he could have probably made any single opponent grind through his army at minimum, if not pull out an outright stalemate.