[SPOILERS - PBEM17] novice and spaceman - Suryavarman of India

[novice]

I knew there must be a reason...

I'm heading to bed soon and have a long day tomorrow. BUT! I have Friday off work so hopefully I can have a look then (and you may well have updated it by then anyway).

You're right, here's an updated plan, complete to T53.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsh...utput=html

Our strongest competitor for the Pyramids is probably Darrell, if he's planned from the start to build them he'll probably beat us easily. We don't have much to lose though, we'll get some nice stone-multiplied failgold, and all the chops go in on the final turn, so we won't waste any forests.

[spacemanmf]

I guess we need to answer Darrell's legal team.

Two complaints:
- Their city will cut us off from additional sites on the jungle arm
- StM might give us a better price for Preferred Religion Status

Maybe point this out and ask for a screenshot of the proposed site and ask them when they'll have Writing, we'll have Writing eot45, so they could offer OB on T46 and we could accept it on T46. That's our timeline for negotiation.

Ok, I'll draft something tomorrow, although feel free to send something tonight if you wish.

[novice]

Inside information from diplomatic backchannels:

Just from a negotiating standpoint, I suggest offering less than what you would be willing to give up to make the deal. Don't just give the farm away from the start.

<REDACTED>I mean, in reality its free hammers for them because they are going to want to spread their state religion around anyway. The deal really is quite generous, for example that city site is clearly ours, land connection or no. I put in clause #3 to avoid giving them an unpleasant surprise. Its a pretty marginal benefit <REDACTED>
So it was probably a stupid idea to put that in there, but as SL pointed out earlier, I have an obsessive need to make everyone like me . Or as Krill put it:

Krill: I'm just wondering if you are being a bit...feeble

Darrell

[novice]

So the above is from Darrell's thread, Darrell shared it with me in a chat tonight.

He seems genuinely interested in long term peaceful relations and thinks he's offered us a good deal. He claims the jungle peninsula ends at their proposed city site, I think he might have incomplete map information though.

The city site will be 2S of the jungle gems south of Seaside, and will have clams and dyes as well. I'm leaning towards accepting his deal roughly as proposed, maybe with a trade clause for the dyes at the city site in question.

I figure we need to ask Shoot the Moon about founding a city on his landmass and about open borders. Should I send him something brief and to the point tonight?

[spacemanmf]

Yeah, happy with you to send him something.

I was wondering if that was from PBEM2 or something...!

EDIT: I'm around a couple of hours if you want me to read over anything. (I'm perfectly fine with you sending something without review, just offering my services.) I do feel a mild loyalty to Shoot despite darrell being the first to offer something. Hmmm, long-ish term peace with our two immediate neighbours sounds familiar...

[spacemanmf]

Thanks for emailing the chat. I chuckled at this:

me: I'm beginning to see why your micromanagement is being made fun of
darrelljs: I will get it slightly before oyu with my current plan
Oh its been mocked
god forbid I forget to move from tile X to tile Y
me: You can probably commiserate with spaceman sometime

[spacemanmf]

We can post the full chat if the lurkers are interested, by the way...

[zakalwe]

Don't make us beg for it.

[spacemanmf]

Heh, just testing the water.

20:44 me: Hi, are you there?
darrelljs: Yeah
me: I see you've hired your own legal team
darrelljs: In a meeting on my phone so replies might be terse and delayed

20:45 me: Could we get a screenshot of your proposed city?
darrelljs: Is that legal?
me: Isn't it? It's listed as legal in the rules
20:46 darrelljs: I thought that was bannedm but I could give a verbal
Oh ok
Did you lurk pbem2?
me: "Diplo and screenshot trading allowed after having met in-game"
20:47 http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=103
darrelljs: Ok so you are proposing an exchange, right?
me: I lurked pbem2 yeah
20:48 tbh we're not that interested in your complete maps but we'd like to see the site your talking about
also, what's your eta on writing, ours is eot45
darrelljs: The site already has our borders in it so wed be showing you some of our core
42 I think
20:49 What are we on now?
me: ok let's get an agreement by then
t41
20:50 darrelljs: Can you give your concern on the site? I would prefer an alternative to a screen shot, if possible.
20:51 me: one concern is that as we understand it it's a long and winding jungle arm, and you'd be cutting us off
darrelljs: Or we just trade maps
The arm teminates at olur proposed city
me: is your motivation intercontinental domestic trade routes?
ok, by a sugar resource?
20:52 darrelljs: Our motivatuion is its three tiles from hindu holy city
No sugar, we can't see that or at least I didn't notice it
20:56 me: ok so where is the city related to the jungle gems NE of your hindu city?
darrelljs: 78
20:57 I'm 95% sure on that
20:58 me: You mean S-SW?
darrelljs: 79
20:59 S/SE I hink
me: okay, and that's the final tile of the arm?
21:00 darrelljs: So as not to be a liar lemme get on the forum
It is 2s of the gems
21:01 There is one grasslnad tile south of the city
There are five grassland tiles in the bfc
There are gems/clams/dye
21:03 Nice GNP BTW
21:05 me: In PBEM13? Yeah
21:06 darrelljs: 17 you cad :-P
I assume tops is you guys
me: Okay, sorry to harp on about this, but can you see water all around the end of that peninsula?
21:09 Actually someone is slightly ahead of us
our crop yield sucks though
afaict only one player has 4 cities though
21:11 darrelljs: Our prod sucks
We have three cities
Someones crop yield is insane
I'm guessing the four city team
21:12 me: yeah
21:13 rego built the oracle btw, I guess you saw
darrelljs: Definitely him
21:14 I've predicted the two wonders pre game
me: tglh and oracle?
darrelljs: Are you doing C&D?
21:15 me: just a little. I'm doing OCD.
darrelljs: Yeah, thought you would get tglh and he'd get oracle/mc/colossus

me: we had to really with all the financials
21:16 darrelljs: Was gonna suggest we share demo numbers each turn to simplify things but if you aren't doing it there's no benefit
Exactly
me: so you're not doing it either?
21:17 c&d that is
21:18 darrelljs: I quit because I hated it

5 minutes

21:23 me: What was your point regarding pbem2 btw?
21:24 darrelljs: I gave a free screenshot and it cost me the game
me: heh - so you don't have any roads now either? Interesting
darrelljs: After that I vowed to only do a trade
21:25 Hah hah...no I have roads now
me: tbh you only want to exchange maps with friends on this map
darrelljs: Yes
I concur
21:27 me: <loaded silence>

21:28 We should never have gotten TGLh, now we have to do diplo with everyone just to get open borders...
I'll do your C&D if you do our diplo?
21:32 darrelljs: I've lurked enough of these games to know the teams that win usually build in peace, so I certainly want to be friends
21:33 I so want to show you a post I made in our forum
I just so want to
me: ooh
please do
21:34 darrelljs: can I temporarily edit and redcat one part in it, which I don't thin is appropriate to share?
me: of course
or you can just copy and paste the things you want to share
21:35 got an errand from the missus, I'll be back in 10 minutes
darrelljs: ok
21:36 http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost.php?
The redacted parts don't change the meaning of the post in any manner
21:37 I share this because I want you to know I actually believe the deal is really good for you. I also like the deal for us obviously or I would not have offered it, but I tried to kraft something I thought would be the first step towards a strong partnership.

6 minutes

21:44 me: I appreciate that. I've read the post now and copied the text, so if you want to you can unredact the redacted stuff.
Pretty funny from GES, we just put on the table the things we were willing to offer, not the best negotiating tactics either
21:45 We forgot to put "land" on the table, though.
21:46 As for the city site that is clearly yours, it's almost as close to our capital, and being on the same continent counts for something, I would think.
21:47 darrelljs: sorry I stepped away
yeah, I thoguht that woudl concern you, which is why i put in the clause on no military staging from there
It woudl ahve concerned me, so i tried to think about what would set my mind at ease
21:49 Yeah, GES and Krill were making fun of me pretty hard. I mean, I suck at diplo. You really made a mistake offering that job to me :P.
Anyway who read pbem2 knows I suck hard at diplo
me: If would be hesitant to sign a gamelong agreement with you
21:50 *I
darrelljs: I don't think I ever broke one!
Now, I had conflicting agreements with Ruff and Krill, and was eventually planning on breaking the one with Krill that's true
21:51 At least I had the courtesy to tell him . He was just going to attack me with no warning.
me: Krill isn't concerned with everybody liking him.
I'm more like you, I don't want to make enemies
darrelljs: No, he's concerned with everyone fearing him.
21:52 We've clashed a lot over micro, but on diplo we just don't see eye to eye at all. Fortunately for everyone in the game, he's just a dedicated lurker.
When the threads open you'll get a kick reading some of the abuse I've had to deal wtih
me: heh, looking forward to it
21:53 darrelljs: At my advanced age of 38, I'd rather walk away from the game having enjoyed it and made new friends. At Krill's tender age of 22 he wants to win very badly. I remember being that age and wanting to prove myself.
Hah-hah

de: You pestered rego yet?
Darrell: no
In a long, drawn out chat with novice right now
de: oh goody
Please don't try and be friends with everyone though

speak of the devil
me: lol
21:54 darrelljs: I'll tell him too late and watch him explode
[SNIP]

Darrell: too late
de ...transcripts please
can just email them from google
Darrell: yeah, I'll do that
de: it'll give me a head start on writing an abusing post in reply to them on the forum
Darrell: we're talking about you now :P
de: great

[SNIP]
21:57 me: Judging from PBEM4 Krill needs Future Tech to manage conquest
21:58 darrelljs: Yeah...I can see waiting for a one generation tech edge but waiting for a two generation?
That's just not right
21:59 me: anyway... I can't really answer your proposal before I've run it by Spaceman. And he's away today.
He is the foreign minister, after all
22:00 darrelljs: That is understandable, its a complex enough deal to be a team decision obviously
me: Did you have a definite ETA on Writig?
darrelljs: The benefit of having dedicated lurkers instead of teammates is I don't need consensus
I can definitely tech it in one turn is my ETA
That is some free info for you
22:01 me: Writing is a one-turn tech for you?
22:02 darrelljs: No no...I made a mistake and put beakers into it thinking I was going to need it, then decided to swap and go a different direction. I have enough beakers that I can go back and finish it at will.
me: I'm beginning to see why your micromanagement is being made fun of
darrelljs: I will get it slightly before oyu with my current plan
Oh its been mocked
22:03 god forbid I forget to move from tile X to tile Y
22:04 me: You can probably commiserate with spaceman sometime
darrelljs: Nice
me: ok, talk to you later
darrelljs: later

[novice]

Draft to Shoot the Moon:

You've probably noticed that we completed The Great Lighthouse a few turns ago. On that note, there are two things we'd like to discuss:
- Would you be willing to sign open borders with us?
- Some of the land on your continent is actually closer to us than to you. The map seems to be designed such that this is the case for all the starting continents. Citi(es) on another continent would be valuable to us as they would provide us with intercontinental domestic trade routes. Do you see any way that you could agree with us having colonies on your continent?

Let us know your thoughts,

novice