EitB 0010 Wishlist/Progress

[gekko64]

mud golems seem fine at 75h, they are 100 in vanilla but 50 in current Eitb is too much.

for shadowwalk, what you suggest seems a lot easier than coding it in the dll so I'd just do that..

[Sareln]

Balance Changes & Features:

• Unit Change: Boost Mud Golem Cost: 50H -> 75H (Same base cost as Worker)
  
• Demon's Altars are National Wonders
  

Okay. Let's address this. Mud Golems @ 50H w/ an Industrious leader. Kyan used it to basically run everyone else over in the game where it was tested - and that makes sense. Hyper-cheap, more-effective Workers -> Bigger, Faster, Better Snowball. That was my bad, should have seen it coming.

Demon's Altar as National wonder which you're saying it's a nerf to infernal (rather than to beasts). I'm not convinced.

It forces beast production into one city. Infernals don't pay Pop Points to build beasts, and each of their cities comes with an obsidian gate, so travel time is O(1). Non-infernals, however, have to pay pop and revolt time for each beast they build and need to figure out a way to get those beasts to the front. The infernals are hurt a bit in having to scrounge together the hammers for the demon's altar, but that cost falls equally on all civs who wish to build beasts, so I feel comfortable factoring it out.

Okay. Hit me

[Tasunke]

It may not be very visible, but demon altars give +2 experience to ANY demonic unit. It also gives free scourge for ALL units. This is basically a must have building for EVERY infernal city. (the +2 exp is given through python iirc, boo on Kael for not adding this to the pedia/ help text, although I think it may be referenced in the pedia). If that weren't enough on its own, it gets even better. As you should know, demon altars give +1 anger to the city it's built in. That means, not only do beasts now start with at least 2 exp, but the opportunity cost for mortal civs is even LARGER than it ever was before. IMHO, I would not mind the altar requirement because it would make the infernals even more awesome, while making it harder for foolish mortals to use Agares' tools ... But to make the altar a national wonder would be just ripping exp from the infernals' burning dead hands. Not to mention how awesome scourge can be for fighting a horde of crusaders, or leaves priests.

[Tasunke]

Possible solutions

Option A

Part 1) infernal capital gives +2 exp in all cities

Part 2) Have demon racial give +40% vs disciple units


Option B

demon altars buildable in all cities


Option C

Add a new national wonder, Shrine of Agares, which gives a free priest, free sage, and free merchant, and is required to build the Beasts.

[Tasunke]

mud golems seem fine at 75h, they are 100 in vanilla but 50 in current Eitb is too much.

for shadowwalk, what you suggest seems a lot easier than coding it in the dll so I'd just do that..

The problem with raw 25% attack is that it does extra damage to flying and mounted units, or anything without defensive bonuses.

[WarriorKnight]

It may not be very visible, but demon altars give +2 experience to ANY demonic unit. It also gives free scourge for ALL units. This is basically a must have building for EVERY infernal city. (the +2 exp is given through python iirc, boo on Kael for not adding this to the pedia/ help text, although I think it may be referenced in the pedia). If that weren't enough on its own, it gets even better. As you should know, demon altars give +1 anger to the city it's built in. That means, not only do beasts now start with at least 2 exp, but the opportunity cost for mortal civs is even LARGER than it ever was before. IMHO, I would not mind the altar requirement because it would make the infernals even more awesome, while making it harder for foolish mortals to use Agares' tools ... But to make the altar a national wonder would be just ripping exp from the infernals' burning dead hands. Not to mention how awesome scourge can be for fighting a horde of crusaders, or leaves priests.

+1 anger means almost nothing by the time you reach Infernal Pact for non-Infernals, there are so many ways to increase happiness at that stage it's a non-factor. Likewise free Scourge is nice but by no means critical unless your opponent is using nothing but Divine units, which isn't a smart thing to do.

Losing 2 exp from every Infernal unit is a bit of a nerf, but I don't think it's as bad as your suggesting. How many Infernal players have built Demon's Altar in the games we've played anyway? Even if the Infernals do last long enough to build some infrastructure, most of the time they want to be building diseased corpes (which are undead) and ritualists (hurts less since Hyborem is SPI right?) anyway.

[HidingKneel]

As far as why creative is 'lore-killing' ... I guess I'm just still baffled as to why a Sheaim leader is Creative :P

I agree; Cre Averax makes no sense at all to me. Not sure what to replace it with, though.
Summoner? (Thematic but no synergy.) Ingenious? (synergizes with pyre zombie rush)

On the general subject, I think Os Gabella needs a boost. Summoner does nothing for her. Does Ind speed up the building of planar gates? If so, I kind of like the idea of Spi/Ind for her (Sheaim need a leader that can build those gates!), though that might be overpowered (and Thessalonica already has those traits).

[gekko64]

planar gates really need a price cut to be worth building

[Qgqqqqq]

+100% speed with summoner?
Hyborems not SPI IIRC.

[gekko64]

I don't know about that. AGG/SUM is already taken and SUM is not Sheaim only so I think it's the base cost that needs to go down. they're just too damn expensive for what they do.