January 12th, 2018, 16:45
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I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I really love the map so far, I've invested a lot of time in this game, and I know myself and apparently the other teams are (or were) having fun with it. I think Woden and I are in a decently competitive position (certainly nothing like the straits Team Relic got themselves into - I didn't realize that their already weak position before the abrupt military buy was already boosted by cheating!), that we have a good gameplan, and it'd be fun to play out. On the other hand, though, everything going on from here is altered: The religion steal can't be undone. Woden and I's shift to aggression to respond to Mike's forward plant (as opposed to the earlier concept I had in mind of settling the frontier first, including with Russia/Germany, THEN attacking) is set. The spoilered information such as Woden and I's attack is set in stone. And of course Kongo/Khmer have the permanent faith/culture advantage from the free monument and shrine.
I'll move forward because I'm divided and it seems the other players wish to, but I also wouldn't object strongly if we were to start over. Sucks to have to repeat the last 40 days, but a clean game might be worth it.
January 13th, 2018, 18:20
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I actually do hope we can continue this game and the reason I don't care that the mapmaker is the replacement is because Khmer's life expectancy is probably around 40 turns. From his duels with TheArchduke, Cornflakes seems to be a fairly good player but I don't think he can dig out of this hole. He is basically filling an empty seat until we come calling and I do think we are very competitive even though the score doesn't reflect it yet.
January 13th, 2018, 20:24
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Yeah, I think from a "winning the game" standpoint continuing is the best path for us (which is part of why I leaned towards a restart).
Cornflakes will take over a Khmer that consists of a capital and a very dry city settled towards his opponents with no military apart from an injured archer to defend it. He'll have no settlers on the map or in production, his partner has only one city, and they have no traders and no economy to speak of. Mike spent all his production on Holy site projects (wasted) and the forward settler (wasted once we raze the city, basically wasted already with the dry settle), I guess counting on the gold bug to make up the difference.
Kongo has the perfect unit to counter your archers, but he'll be dramatically outproduced in what is essentially a 2 v 1, and with Rome/China lurking behind (although I haven't met their scouts yet, I wonder how aggressively they're scouting)?
So Team Relic is screwed, and I think you, I, Japper, and Cornflakes are the only ones who appreciate HOW screwed - coincidentally, we're the same ones suggesting a restart! 
Our own position is solid, but not spectacular. We lag in score since we have no holy sites and no religion, which I like, since it might help the other teams underestimate us. We're reasonably competitive in science, but our culture is lagging badly between Choral Music and Rome. Nan Madol will help with that, but I need time to suzerain it and get districts up, and until then we'll be behind. So, three mid-term goals to set us up for long-term success:
1)Eat Khmer
2)Settle the Russian frontier and stake out our claims there
3)Fix our backwards culture
Well, let's see how this goes.
January 13th, 2018, 21:38
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Looks like we're going to carry on, so here are the much-delayed score reports. These are before the Great Khmer Debacle of PBEM7, so Mike's data is all suspect. This will give us a snapshot of where things stand when we resume tomorrow (hopefully):
Score report:
That's one turn out of date, and doesn't update CQUI domination or gold scores. Two interesting things.
1)Note Khmer's sudden spike from 18 to 68 points in domination. This was the surge that aroused Woden and I's suspicions, but while I was assuming Khmer was just a great deal better than I was, Woden hit on the real truth. Props to him for catching it when he did - it was disruptive, but best to have it out now as opposed to sixty turns down the line when the game is irretrievable.
2)Rome finished a settler last turn. The trouble is that Rome has been in colonization a lot longer than I have - hell, if I count civics right they should be hitting their governments soon, while that's...a long way off, for me. Nan Madol and RNDs everywhere will function like monuments, and will even the odds a little bit, but you can't deny Rome's lead on the snowball.
This is theory-crafting as I write this, but I wonder if Rome wouldn't benefit from its bonus being turned down to Civ 5's Rome? Production discounts on stuff built in the capital, and MAYBE a free monument in the capital to kick things off. They still have dibs on God-King and have an early snowball, but it's not quite as overwhelming. I dunno. But, I knew Rome was a possibility when I signed up, so I'm not gonna complain. Just...damn, it's intimidating. 
Okay, next turn coming up.
January 13th, 2018, 21:58
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Turn 42
Score report:
And this should bring us up to date. Note that domination CQUI and gold scores are still out of date.
Okay, here's another oddity about Mike that should have tipped us off: He's running ahead of Rome in culture. Nan Madol and a monument in the capital match Rome's two monuments, of course, and he could have grabbed some cheaper civics. Still, though, the fantastic culture here, AND the powerful military, AND the religion, AND the settlers and trader, should have tipped us off sooner, maybe.
Other news of the turn: My empire score is second only to Emperor's! If you subtract 6 points for his super-districts, I'm actually only 1 point behind him in terms of Empire score. I'll remain ahead of Rome even when they found their city (Salamis is slightly larger than Roman City #2, I assume), so even though we're last in score Woden and I aren't doing too badly. In this early age of cheap techs and civics, when a couple of city-states can swing things as drastically as they have Khmer, and when (I think) Holy Sites and other early districts are overvalued, Empire score is what you want to look at, and I'm doing okay here. If Woden can chop out his settler soon, he'll accelerate his curve more in line with the other civs.
Our science lags slightly and our culture is lagging badly. Once our round of settlers is out, it might be time to squeeze out a monument. I need to see if I can get a builder out to take advantage of some overflow chops - maybe chop a warrior into a monument in both cities? Hmmmmm...I'll miss having oledavy's advice, but he had to spoil himself to help sort out the Khmer Debacle. Regrettable, but better than the alternative. Good thing my teammate's such an excellent builder himself! :  I'll be counting on you, mate, to help me with this stuff, I'm rubbish at it.
Let's see...Oh yes! Strategy for the war with Khmer:
Khmer strengths:
1)Defensive terrain
2)Superior science
3)A great UU in Kongo's swordsman
Khmer weaknesses:
1)No military to speak of
2)Poor production - only one real city, though the second could pull something off with a builder and chopping walls, perhaps? Might need to build a battering ram.
3)No prospects of improving production, either - building a settler will take a long time and remove the ability to build military units.
As I see it, Cornflake's only real chance is to frantically chop with overflow to squeeze out an emergency army - but even then he's got to build a builder first (maybe? Hopefully?), and then get that army to the front in strength enough that it's not overwhelmed. Then, he and Japper need to hold until teching up to Swordsmen/Horsemen, which counter Woden's UU, and counterattack.
So they need to make a play for time, which means we need to raze that city fast. We can then push and perhaps choke Khmer's capital until we have strength enough to take it. Pushing fast also neutralizes their science advantage, as our expanding population base will equalize tech rates (Mine is already near theirs, and Woden's will improve once he can get another city out).
Thus, our strategy is straightfoward: I will assemble my units and await Woden's strike force just outside Khmer's city. I'll keep my slingers unupgraded, since they're up-keep free and provide cheap striking power. Ideally, they can take the shots for my more valuable warriors, who will be needed to lay siege to Aranyaka and storm the city. Woden's archers will do most of the killing if any units reveal themselves, and will provide fire support on the city.
Movement will be tough around Aranyaka - I want to send two warriors around the mountain to lock in the siege from the west, while the slingers and other warrior besiege from the east and cover Woden's archers. I need to look at the terrain again to plan our approach, but that's the basic outlines of what I have in mind. Woden, as always I welcome your thoughts.
January 13th, 2018, 23:39
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Yes, our culture and science right now are behind most but you finishing Early Empire gives me the inspiration, which in turn gives me an envoy in Geneva. That should at least bring me up to your rate and makes Sullla last in science. AS for culture, I did overflow the archer at the capital into a monument instead of a trader, as I need the culture more than the road at this time. I will also build a monument at Isis after the settler while my capital pushes out 2 builders. Both the monuments will speed me to Political Philosophy, which in turn will bring Valletta on line sooner for faith buying, which will allow me to faith buy districts and speed up the GG.
So culture and science on my end will improve shortly, then it will be a race to get out horsemen and the GG. We will probably have to build a ram for their capitals. I think if Khmer doesn't have Masonry yet, Cornflakes will switch to it immediately and start walls at both cities. I also think he will try and push units out of Aranyaka as fast as he can to stall us. He probably knows we are a few turns away from an attack so we will have to push as fast as we can, so we can raze the city before he has time to put up more resistance. I don't expect any units from his capital. I think he will try and fortify there and let us come through the rough terrain.
My second archer can be next to the mountain in 3 turns and ready to move up after, 3rd one is out a little longer since he is dealing with a barb scout. Looks like your warriors are out about 3 or 4 turns too. We will have to come up with an attack plan. Most likely that archer will move into the city, so we will have to take the city quickly before he injures too many of our units. Units should be safe from attack until right next to the city on the north side. A forest and hill should prevent his archer from being able to shot but also prevent use from shooting from there too. I think if I send the first 2 archers around the mountain to the south along with a warrior or 2, then by the time were are ready for the assault, the 3rd archer should have arrived. Just be careful with exposing your units to his archer. I would hate your him to have an opportunity to pick off one of your units.
January 14th, 2018, 11:38
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This is the best image I have available of the terrain around Aranyaka. Defensively it's solid, with mountains and forests giving it lots of cover from ranged attackers. The only places where the city can be fired on from non-adjacent tiles are the tea, and possibly the 3 tiles south of the city (if the southern tile is plains). On the other hand, it'll also cover my warriors as they approach the city. The plan is to wait out of range until your archers are ready to move up, then move everyone in an at once. If he has two archers, he could conceivably bring down one of my warriors, so I'll have a couple of extra to enforce the siege. I want to put a warrior due east and due west of the city, which I can reach without too much trouble, on the first turn, and then bring in as many additional troops as I can in the turns following.
January 14th, 2018, 15:27
(This post was last modified: January 14th, 2018, 15:29 by Woden.)
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(January 12th, 2018, 13:29)rho21 Wrote: (January 12th, 2018, 11:26)Woden Wrote: Still not sure if Japper was in on it, or at least aware of it, but will say that his game looked straight when I was crunching the numbers (at least nothing jumped out on his end).
Japper's response was effectively:- he wasn't in on it
- he didn't notice anything awry around the time of the shrine purchase
- he was confused by the most recent purchases and couldn't work out where the production had come from
- not having run the numbers as you had, he was working on an assumption of good faith on Mike's part, and that presumably something clever had gone on with chopping and bonus cards
This doesn't seem unreasonable to me; barring other evidence, I hope that everyone can assume that Japper is on the level here.
I am pretty sure my feeling there are just residual from how I thought they originally were adding the gold with FireTuner but now am certain they did not use it. I noticed yesterday that the developer's tools showed up in my Steam profile so I went and checked both Japper's and Mike's profile and neither had it listed under recent activity, so they weren't using it. Pretty sure Japper was just un-observant (of coarse I can't really say I know 100% of what my teammate is doing every turn either). I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
Quote: (January 12th, 2018, 11:26)Woden Wrote: This does leaves me and CMF in a little bit of a pickle. We have been setting up to raze Khmer's second city within 10 turns. I am pretty sure they will be lots of bitching and moaning about how we exploited the fact Khmer had to delete a bunch of stuff when it happens
If possible without spoilers, I will try to head off any suggestions in that direction if I see them in other threads.
This might help if someone's ranting is starting to ruin their game, Thanks! In all honesty, with Cornflakes taking over it might become a lot harder to take his capital now, than before, so also not sure if we will get to this point.
Quote: (January 12th, 2018, 11:26)Woden Wrote: Part of me just wants to say screw it and kill the game and start a new, clean PBEM but I am really liking how it is going, loving the map, and want to see where it goes
From my perspective as a gen-lurker, this is easily the most interesting game going on right now. It's a huge shame to see it tainted, but I'm very much hoping it can continue.
Very glad we are continuing. Liking this game a lot and glad lurkers are finding it interesting, sans the drama!
January 14th, 2018, 22:36
(This post was last modified: January 14th, 2018, 22:42 by Chevalier Mal Fet.)
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Turn 43
Score report:
Notes from the score: Japper finally founds his second city, just out of sight of my scout (I can see the borders) - a full turn AFTER I found my third city! And he's got no districts down either (neither do I, but I'm up a full city and have a much stronger military than he does). Let's see...Emperor and Archduke's military scores have spiked, which makes me nervous. Mike's ill-gotten units are still showing up in the score, might need to wait a while before I can determine anything useful about Khmer. Cornflakes IS going to delete those, right? I know that I at least listed it as my condition for the game continuing, then I sort of took it for granted that it was happening...Seems obvious, but y'never know!
On to my turn!
Start the turn by finishing writing, first step on the road to Commercial districts in my three cities. I don't intend to build campuses for a while, though - I'll throw down a few, to keep up in science, they're certainly good to have, but my focus will be on money generation. Falling behind a full generation in military tech is bad, of course. My research will need to get more focused in the near future, probably towards iron working or horseback riding (whichever Woden doesn't research first).
I ultimately decide to invest 3 turns into Astrology, though. My upcoming cities will be near sea resources, which will let me land the inspiration for Celestial Navigation hopefully in the next ~20 turns or so. But, I need Astrology finished first. I'll invest 3 turns, then wait to find a natural wonder (or polish off the last two turns when I land the CN boost). Then, either currency, if the war is going well, archery, if it's going terribly and I need to think about defense soon, or bronze working, so I can get an encampment down at Trafalgar (and possibly Actium).
Meanwhile, I swap my civics research in a potentially harebrained scheme:
Okay, why mysticism? Well, it's a 4-turn detour from State Workforce, which WOULD mean a 4-turn delay in finishing the civic...except that mysticism grants an envoy! The envoy is what I'm after, see. I'll take that envoy, and I'll drop it into Nan Madol - bam, free monument. It does mean delaying suzerainity later, of course, since I won't be able to do Charismatic Leader on it, BUT on the other hand, this will speed up both State Workforce AND political philosophy - it'll only take 12 turns for the culture spent on Mysticism to pay for itself from Nan Madol, which means I'll be ahead of the game before I finish PP.
I try to think about similar boosts at Salamis, but a builder takes just as long as a settler there - getting out a builder to chop would delay that settler by quite a bit. There's no rush here, I think, to chop - the longer I wait, the bigger the yield, after all. So, my cities continue as they are - a warrior out of Trafalgar, and then a double settler build.
The scout makes contact with Japper's pet science state:
Seoul! Free Eurekas every new era. They want me to clear a barb camp, which, uh, isn't going to happen. You can also spot Japper's new city up there in the fog. I zoom in on it to show off the hill tile south of the city center:
Science yield on a hill tile? Am I spotting hidden iron there? Woden will have to confirm, he has bronze working and I don't. Plan for the scout is to circle back east and north towards Japper's capital, then, if I get away with that, blaze north and west for Rome and China.
The southern galley peeks a little further south, finds more empty tundra, then comes back. I want it on hand to protect any canal cities that Woden and I throw up, and it might come in handy for taking Kabul in the middle term, as well. Once things are more settled I might resume explorations down here, but for now I think I've found everything useful. Meanwhile, galley #2 (I need better names) finds another off-shore island south of Kabul!:
Needless to say, I'm hoping this one is as juicy as Sicily was. I'm also hoping that this pattern is repeated in the other 2 seas we border. Think of it: if I can claim indisputable mastery of the seas (which, why wouldn't I?), then I'll have no less than SIX great city spots that are essentially immune from attack. Even if we had equal territory with everyone else, those 6 extra cities would give Woden and I a big edge. It'll also make up for the lackluster terrain around my capital, dominated as it is by that vast desert and Lake Malta.
Uh, let's see, what else?
Oh! The front! Woden's first archer is probing south, so I press south with my own units, too. I have 2 slingers and 2 warriors in the area already, and 2 more warriors and another slinger ~7 turns out. We should be able to attack early enough that Cornflakes can do nothing to save the city, but I have no doubt he's making frantic efforts to hold it - what other choice does he have?
That's all for today. Glad we're back in action, and I'll see y'all tomorrow.
January 15th, 2018, 11:33
(This post was last modified: January 15th, 2018, 11:38 by Woden.)
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Nubia-Turn 43
Back in action! Start off with...
Thanks to CMF for finishing the civic. This also fulfills the quest for Geneva...
+2  for me! I didn't even have to do anything. CMF meets them 2 turns ago, I meet them last turn. He completes Early Empire, I get envoy. Nice! That is basically a first meet envoy. That brings me close to England's science rate, not quite equal but close.
I move my archers closer to the front, builder and slinger move next to the stone and will harvest in 2 turns. Switch research to State Workforce (due in 2), plus the extra +2 from Geneva drops Sailing to 2 turns. This will give the stone a little more production (+3  , 43 total). I should be able to get a little overflow into a monument after the settler and with a jungle chop, make it a ~5 turn build instead of a 10.
Here is the current score...
I am dead last but still not worried. It is still early and there is time. Plus, take out the religion and wonders and the scores of everybody is quite close still. We are behind in tech and civics but hopefully we can make up some soon with a few monuments and the envoy into Geneva. I did check Khmer's power and it did drop slightly (probably barb trouble). Will have to check again next turn to see what it ended up at with whatever they decided as a punishment. I am suspecting at least to see the 2 bought archers gone.
Here is the GP screen,
No additional non-holy site districts yet, so that is good. I am a little worried that as people get into the 2nd tier governments, they may compete with us for the first GG. Luckily, I have the district and can run projects if need be.
In the east...
Barb Horseman did attack. I keep the warrior fortifed and will get a promotion next turn after the horseman attacks again.
CMF,
Why bring your galley in the southwest back? Won't it be better to continue scouting around Kongo/Khmer land and make your way to Germany/Rome? You can see what kind of city states are over there and see if you can find a coastal natural wonder? Plus, if you defog the coast lines, we can see when/if they found a coastal city. I am thinking once you have a few naval units and the coast defogged, if Rome/Germany found any coastal cities, we can go harass/raze them with your navy and slow down their development. They will be too far away to do much about it. I don't know how much a galley will help defend the canal cities in the near future, maybe Quadriremes with a ranged attack. Also, once we raze Aranyaka, it might be a good idea to get a galley in the north sea out of Actium to defog those coasts?
I will double check on the suspected iron tile at Japper's new city but you are probably right. It also means that Japper has Bronze Working (if I remember correctly). I seem to recall Alhambram mentioning seeing the yields from Niter in PBEM2 when I had the tech and he did not.
What are your plans for the scout? Are you thinking of bringing him back across the southern part of the Kongo/Khmer continent? Might be nice to see what the terrain is down there and see if it would be easier to push that way by Khmer's capital. or you could push north and find Rome/Germany. Not sure the best option here. Re-read the above post and saw what you wrote, sounds good.
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