[SPOILERS - NO PLAYERS] The Final Clusterfuck: The PB38 Map and Lurker Thread

[Thoth]

This will not prevent me from being within fifteen tiles of Pindicator somehow.

I just wanted to preserve this beautiful moment in here. Commodore is being much too optimistic here. The actual number is 12.



This game will be great, I can feel it.

I'm looking forward to the fireworks.

[Cornflakes]

What is the history between Pindicator and Commodore?

[Krill]

PB5, 8, 13 had pin with a teammate border Com. Com didn't play PB18, and PB27...Pin didn't play that one right? So every mainline RtR game they have both played they have been neighbours.

[Krill]

And that ignores the PBEMs

[Mardoc]

What is the history between Pindicator and Commodore?

In one of the early games (PB5, I think?) they ended up sharing some marginal land with very little choice but to fight (scooter was Pindicator's partner in that game, IIRC).  It didn't help that at the time Commodore had a reputation as a bit of a wolverine, nor did it help that Pindicator kicked off the war from a superior position but didn't invest quite enough into units.  Pindicator ended up evacuating his empire and taking over a neighbor lock-stock-and-barrel - which of course meant that Commodore ended up with the conquest.  That was an epic story, by the way, I strongly recommend reading about their migration.

Since then, I think it's mainly been reaction.  They've ended up neighbors in several games, and always end up fighting.  I think it's a mutual agreement that 'he's a nice guy, but he's too prone to fight and too good at it, so I'd better hit first'.  Which of course is a rather self-fulfilling prophecy.  I think they also tend to have slightly different perspectives on what constitutes aggression as compared to perfectly reasonable spheres of influence, so it's easy for one of them to be planting a 'perfectly reasonable, maybe a little aggressive border city' and the other to see 'a totally arrogant push into what is obviously my land'.  

Then, on top, they're similar enough in skill to be often in the same games, often both with a reasonable chance to win (or at least place), if not for the other guy.  None of the wars have been stomps.  And, honestly, most of the time in these games you *do* end up fighting all your neighbors, unless you die early, and neither of them is the sort to die early.

Anyway, they don't hate each other or anything.  I'm sure they'll be cursing fate, and they'll likely end up at war, but it won't be a grudge so much as an inevitability.  

------------

Oh, and on top, they're both engaging reporters with tactical skill and neat plans, so their wars tend to be quite fun to watch.  I think it was one of their wars where a neat trick was either invented or at least showcased: turn out that if you bring a great-general unit on a boat, and promote Morale *after* disembarking, you get an extra move that you can use to hit a target that was thought to be out of reach.  Like a capital city that contains several wonders.

[Krill]

That epic migration was in pb8. They had an earlier conflict in PB5 where they were neighbours over water and commodore did a naval invasion that failed but led to pin losing a city that was one turn from completing the great lighthouse.

They very much respect each other, and years have past since then. Maybe they can be allies this game.

[darrelljs]

I just wanted to preserve this beautiful moment in here. Commodore is being much too optimistic here. The actual number is 12.

Oh man if this was not a spoiler it would be QUOTE OF THE CENTURY .

Darrell

[RefSteel]

One frustrating thing is that apart from giving B4ndit an opportunity to shoot himself in the foot, and not wanting to appear to take his civ away from him, there's no earthly reason why some random lurker couldn't just log into the game, settle his city, start a Worker using the FP, start Hunting, and move the Scout 2NW to the forest hill. Of all the starts, B4ndit's is probably the one that requires the least thought on T0. But in case he wants to try a loony gambit or wants to scout around the pigs and spices ASAP - and again so that he doesn't feel like we're forcing anything on him - we can't just do that without waiting for him....

Also: Thanks, Mardoc! And thanks for all your help earlier in the map-making process!

And on Commodore and pindicator: They haven't always fought each other. As I recall, they stayed peaceful (toward each other, while each fighting various other wars) throughout all of PB13, partly because of a barren region between their starting regions, with Commodore going so far as to retheme his civ as "Canada" to represent his self-perceived role as a not-very-geopolitically-relevant country just north of a ("Pindicooter's") superpower. That was also the game in which Ottawa became a legend.

[Mardoc]

One frustrating thing is that apart from giving B4ndit an opportunity to shoot himself in the foot, and not wanting to appear to take his civ away from him, there's no earthly reason why some random lurker couldn't just log into the game, settle his city, start a Worker using the FP, start Hunting, and move the Scout 2NW to the forest hill.  Of all the starts, B4ndit's is probably the one that requires the least thought on T0.  But in case he wants to try a loony gambit or wants to scout around the pigs and spices ASAP - and again so that he doesn't feel like we're forcing anything on him - we can't just do that without waiting for him....

Well, one additional bit.  Making him do everything/request help/publicly be last to end turn/etc ought to increase the pressure on him to either figure out a workaround or find a sub.  It doesn't help right now, but should mean he resolves his problems sooner.

Also:  Thanks, Mardoc!  And thanks for all your help earlier in the map-making process!

Glad to help.  I only wish I could have helped out more.

And on Commodore and pindicator:  They haven't always fought each other.  As I recall, they stayed peaceful (toward each other, while each fighting various other wars) throughout all of PB13, partly because of a barren region between their starting regions, with Commodore going so far as to retheme his civ as "Canada" to represent his self-perceived role as a not-very-geopolitically-relevant country just north of a ("Pindicooter's") superpower.  That was also the game in which Ottawa became a legend.

I forgot about that one!  Both of them ended up fighting a lot in that game, too, just not against each other.  It'll be interesting to see which way they end up falling.

That said - with neighbors of TBS, plako, Gavagai, and each other, neither of them will be winning the game anyway.  Got to have at least one neighbor you can conquer.  The only way they have a shot is if détente lasts long enough for them to both get to Astronomy and pick up land on the Astro-islands and find more distant targets.  Which...probably requires plako and Gavagai to end up in a grueling stalemate, while both Commodore and Pindicator keep cool and make good guesses about the map design.  Seems like a long shot, especially with map trading disabled.

[scooter]

One of the additional factors in the pindicator/Commodore saga (of which I've been teamed with pindicator for about half of it) is the tendency for them to be set up geographically where one or both of them have no choice but to fight the other. For example, PB8 happened and Commodore was hemmed-in on land with no choice but to attack pindicator and I, and he did so successfully. The very next game we all participated in (PB13), he again was geographically trapped between the ocean and our team, making it apparent that we might get some sort of redux. I remember legitimately considering quitting the game for a few hours after I found out he was our immediate neighbor again.

Of course, that particular game played out differently for a variety of reasons (including saga fatigue on Commodore's part), but it's a bit more than just geographic proximity... It's often been geographic proximity with a total lack of other options, and it's happened with such routine frequency that it can occasionally feel like a vast mapmaker conspiracy.